Another surface grinder conversion thread.

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I finally got around to converting my grinder. I had been on the fence about it for a while. I had been able to "hog" to some extent with the stone wheel, especially since setting up the coolant system, but finally I was grinding cores for a san mai project and decided to go for it.

The machine is an Abrasive Machine Tool Co. model 3B automatic surface grinder, with 8"x24" table and 3 hp. spindle.
I used my big old 18" Hendey lathe to turn the hub of an old serrated contact wheel to fit the grinder. The rubber on that old 8" serrated wheel is hard as a rock... just right!

[youtube]9xtKSQMHFrk[/youtube]

I'm planning to come back to this thread later today and discuss some of my impressions of grinding before and after conversion.
 
Man, I don't understand half of what goes on in your shop, but it's so cool that you can do those things.
 
Nice! That 24 inch bed is sure going to make your life easier.
 
OK. Some thoughts.

I've read a lot of surface grinder threads, and there are usually a few areas of the conversation that are lacking.
People talk mostly about how much material in thousandths can be taken off in a single pass pattern. I say pattern to differentiate from a single pass left-to-right. It takes a pattern of these to cover the workpiece.

A common misconception is that a 2" contact wheel would save time by covering the workpiece in one pass, or in very few passes.
The fallacy is in not understanding that mostly only the leading edge of the belt or wheel is doing the majority of the work. The table normally steps in or out with every pass, from left to right and then right to left.

So, when one sets the amount of Y axis feed or "stepover," that in combination with the depth of cut selected at the spindle controls the amount of material removed in one side to side pass. This amount is then repeated on the next pass, and so forth, until the workpiece has been covered completely by the wheel/stone.

So, imagine that a flat piece is sitting on the chuck, the surface has been "found," and that the spindle has been lowered by .005" depth of cut.
Then, it remains to set the amount the table will jog in or out with each pass- my grinder can be set from zero to about .200" stepover on each side, or none or all on either side. In this case, we'll set stepover to .050", a reasonable amount for significant material removal.

We are taking a rectangular piece of the cross sectional area of the workpiece then, with each pass. In this case, a rectangle .005" x .050" in area. It takes a given amount of horsepower to do this, and puts a given amount of heat into the workpiece. If we double the depth of cut, we double the amount of work and heat, or if we double the stepover rather than the depth, the effect is the same, of doubling the work performed per pass.

So, stepover is just as germane as depth of cut to the discussion of what a grinder will do.

After setting up flood coolant on this machine with Trimsol soluble oil, and using the rough AlOx stone that came with it, it would take a .005" deep cut at about .050" stepover before the spindle would begin to bog. That's a lot more than many grinders would do, but still if taking .150" off each side of a big ladder billet, even with auto feed, it takes FOREVER.
Additionally, even with coolant, hogging at this rate with a stone will begin to cup the stock up on the ends, the thinner the worse. Forget about AEB-L at .100"!

That's why I decided to change over.

I have been settling into the new grinding head conservatively, at this point I've been able to take .010" depth of cut with .100" stepover per pass with no sign of slowing the spindle. At this point though, the stock will begin to warp if it's thin or AEB-L. The belt introduces quite a bit less heat to the work, but when taking this much off it does heat up after a while. My mag chuck is not fine pole, which I believe would help with this- although it is a nice old powered electro-mag with built in de-mag feature. I may look into setting up a mist system for it, although that would take some added shielding to keep coolant from spraying all over the shop.

Another thing that is a bit misunderstood in grinder discussions is stone grit and finish. It's actually possible to get a quite decent and smooth finish with even a 36 grit wheel, quite unlike a 36 grit finish on a hand-held workpiece. It help to understand that the process is actually "abrasive machining."

What I mean is that the surface of the stone, on a micro level, is made up of a bunch of tiny little sharp cutters, each one not unlike the sharp tooth of a lathe bit or end mill. What controls the smoothness of the surface is mostly how uniformly and at what depth and speed the work is fed under the cutters.
Much like a lathe or mill, the work is often "hogged out" to remove most of the material, then a final pass or two taken with a lighter cut and higher spindle speed to get a finer surface finish. It is true that on a surface grinder, if a particularly fine or accurate finish is desired, the abrasive material or grit size can be changed as well. Of course as is true of almost all machining, the cutter material or grit must be chosen to match the qualities of the material, at the outset.

Much of this applies to surface grinding with belts as well. I've been using a half worn-out 36 grit red ceramic belt- a sharp new belt would likely cut more aggressively and cooler. And, of course if I switch to say a Gator A45 next the surface finish I can obtain will be finer than that possible with even a finely-fed 36 grit belt.

That's all the rambling I have for now, on the subject. I'm sure there will be more. I just wanted to shed some light on a few things for any future hack machinists like me, learning online...
 
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Excellent write up Salem. This may be the first belt vs stone thread I have read that goes into this level of explanation on the differences between the two. Well done!

I have a couple of questions for you:

You seem to have some knowledge unique to surface grinders. Is this tribal knowledge obtained over time or do you have any recommendations on books or websites that explain this?

Did you go with a 2" wheel or 1" wheel? I've read a lot of folks use the 1" wheel because of grinding with the leading edge like you mentioned above.

Did your AEBL warp even with flood coolant? That is mostly what i have been working with and because of warping I rarely use my SG, but thought coolant might prevent that.

Thanks
-Clint
 
Clint, thanks for your interest. I will shed what light I can on your questions...

As per my surface grinding knowledge, I certainly can't cite any main or single source for a well rounded presentation of the basics. I can list some of the places I have frequented, to put together my current understanding of the process.

Suburban Tool, on Youtube, has a lot of videos about grinding with stone wheels, for typical machine shop applications. There are a few other vids on Youtube that explore a little below the surface (pun intended) on this subject.
Practical Machinist.com has a ton of good info that can be gleaned through judicious searching, in various threads.
It is mostly knifemaker websites and forums that have knowledge re belts on surface grinders. I have learned a lot from Patrice's build, Ranger Bob from TX, remarks made by Javan D. over time, many others. Even my mentor Ken Onion, who first showed me the basic use of auto surface grinding with a stone wheel, has since switched over to belts.
For older machines like this, manuals for operation and maintenance can often be found at vintagemachinery.org or lathes.co.uk. Huge resources there!

I used a 2" wide wheel, since that's what I had easy to hand. A 1" is nice, since one has to cover the workpiece with the entire face of the wheel- so it's 1" more width of covering passes, mostly unneccessary, to use a 2" wheel. However, Ranger Bob from TX noted in another thread that he likes a 2" wheel since he uses gator belts and they suck to split down to 1". So, since I like gators, I'll probably stick with 2" for the foreseeable.

AEB-L just warps. Certainly even with flood coolant, although a medium amount of stock removal is possible with coolant while not inducing warp. I always box the piece in with thinner 1080 or 15n20 scrap just in case, especially since it's not as magnetic as carbon steels. I'd do it if i were you!

Dinner time! Gotta go.
 
Having had dinner, a few more thoughts regarding education on this machine.

I don't recommend getting one of these, and just firing it up and grinding without first getting either some firsthand instruction or at least doing a bunch of reading what NOT to do, first. These are dangerous machines!

But, with a solid grasp of the basic operations of the machine and how to run it safely, you can become your own teacher in terms of how to use your particular machine for your particular uses. Try things, little variations on what worked or didn't before, and find a path to either it doing what you need it to, or you getting yet more machines! Either is a win. Just don't hurt yourself, or the machine in the process.
 
I can set it to cover the entire workpiece in passes, and walk away... a nice feature is the table in/out travel stop limits on the side, which can be set for the width of the piece. When the edge of the piece has been reached, the interlock trips the auto-feed handle out of engagement.
The only thing is that it does not have any down-feed feature- so after every full pass pattern, I do listen for the table to stop running from wherever I'm at in the shop, come dial in more depth, and set it going again the other direction.
 
You seem to have some knowledge unique to surface grinders. Is this tribal knowledge obtained over time or do you have any recommendations on books or websites that explain this?

https://www.amazon.com/Grinding-Technology-2nd-Steve-Krar/dp/0827363907

That's the current textbook used in colleges here

There's a workbook with practice questions and homework too.


SG's are old, but the abrasive technologies keep improving.

You can find old books at archive.org Setups will still be relevant, but the wheel compositions will have changed.

You can find some good youtube videos on it

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrUM7Q29YDCs-zDrc1QRKQQ
https://www.youtube.com/user/shadonhkw/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl/videos
 
I can set it to cover the entire workpiece in passes, and walk away... a nice feature is the table in/out travel stop limits on the side, which can be set for the width of the piece. When the edge of the piece has been reached, the interlock trips the auto-feed handle out of engagement.
The only thing is that it does not have any down-feed feature- so after every full pass pattern, I do listen for the table to stop running from wherever I'm at in the shop, come dial in more depth, and set it going again the other direction.

With the increase you gained on depth of cut, and the auto feed = that's HUGE.

Compared to standing there and spinning cranks, that's awesome.



Apparently on the newest ones, you can set them to hit a thickness and walk away.
It's just $
 
Thanks for the added info there Count! Also you are right, having so far at least doubled my grinding speed/power is huge indeed! I will have residual glee over it for a while, I believe.
 
OK. Some thoughts.
A common misconception is that a 2" contact wheel would save time by covering the workpiece in one pass, or in very few passes.
The fallacy is in not understanding that mostly only the leading edge of the belt or wheel is doing the majority of the work. The table normally steps in or out with every pass, from left to right and then right to left.

It is for this reason - and after running a 2" belt for about 4 years - that I switched to a one inch wheel.
I am so glad I did.
We are only working with the leading edge of the belt, like you illustrate here. With a one inch wheel, we can go completely over the work piece and begin our travel back the other way quicker. (A lot less movement, as well, and less cranking on a manual machine)
As well, the variation in the belt itself - which makes a difference on the final result - is reduced by 50%.
So much more control.
And this was at the recommendation of someone who builds nearly 100% folders of high precision.
Give it some thought.
It's one of the best moves I made in my shop in a while.
 
.100 x .100 is pretty great. Is that grinding ladders?

Another question I've always had about the belt conversion is whether you're curling a bit of the belt over the wheel corner. If you look at how a rock wheel breaks down, it becomes readily apparent how the leading edge is doing the majority of the work, and how that leading edge breaks down over time. So on a belt, since you only have so much thickness of abrasive to work with, a .100 depth of cut would get past most belts unless it's curled over the edge?
 
.100 x .100 is pretty great. Is that grinding ladders?

Oh man, that would be amazing! Actually, it was a typo on my part- I just went back and corrected it.
It should have read ".010 depth by .100 stepover." .100" deep in a pass would be nearly 1/8", an insane amount and perhaps more in the realm of blanchard grinding. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

Well, the entire surface of the belt is at the desired depth, more or less- so the belt's not curled over the wheel corner, but the leading edge still does almosst all of the work. It is supported however by the edge of the contact wheel.
 
.100 x .100 is pretty great. Is that grinding ladders?

Another question I've always had about the belt conversion is whether you're curling a bit of the belt over the wheel corner. If you look at how a rock wheel breaks down, it becomes readily apparent how the leading edge is doing the majority of the work, and how that leading edge breaks down over time. So on a belt, since you only have so much thickness of abrasive to work with, a .100 depth of cut would get past most belts unless it's curled over the edge?

I first wondered this as well, but the consensus from other more experienced makers than myself seem to recommend getting, say, a 1.125" wheel and splitting belts to 1", or using a 2.125 wheel for a 2" belt, so that the belt remains flat. A lot of makers suggest knocking down the belt splice with a dia-pad or a diamond file, and IIRC, at least one or two makers talked about dressing the belt similar to how you would a stone.

Everything Salem is talking about seems to mirror what info I've found and experience I have with my grinder as well. I agree that it's hard to find any one source for an exhaustive "how to" on surface grinding. I'll have to check out the links that Count posted.

Salem, I might have missed it, but are you using a serrated wheel, or smooth? I'm using a 90 duro serrated, but I seem to get what looks almost like a chatter pattern or VERY FINE ridges when grinding. If I spark out, it improved the finish somewhat, but it's still very faint. I've tried slowing down feed rates, changing step over, and using different belts (some seem better than others) but the pattern seems to stick around. I don't think it's my spindle bearings, but I'm wondering if a smooth wheel would change anything. The pattern seems to run perpendicular to the wheel.

Untitled by AR Custom Knives (Andrew Riley), on Flickr

Anybody have any suggestions?
 
That looks like wheel runout to me. If you slow down the table speed (not crossfeed) does the pattern change? Not sure if that's what you meant from what you've tried. I could see it being related to the serrated wheel too, have you tried lower belt tension? Could the belt be conforming to the serrations enough that it's actually presenting a faceted wheel to the work surface?
 
Oh man, that would be amazing! Actually, it was a typo on my part- I just went back and corrected it.
It should have read ".010 depth by .100 stepover." .100" deep in a pass would be nearly 1/8", an insane amount and perhaps more in the realm of blanchard grinding. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

Well, the entire surface of the belt is at the desired depth, more or less- so the belt's not curled over the wheel corner, but the leading edge still does almosst all of the work. It is supported however by the edge of the contact wheel.

Ok, that's different :D

When I need to hog a good portion of material on a surface grinder with a rock wheel, when I haven't had automatic downfeed available, I would do a .030" depth of cut and something like a .005 crossfeed stepover. Your point that it kind of takes the same amount of time no matter what you do is true, you can only remove so much volume before heat and HP get you, doing a deep depth of cut with a very slow cross feed gets you the most walk away time to do something else without downfeed.
 
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