Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[Mark Knapp]

I didn't miss anything. I agreed that hunting groups definitely help with conservation and aren't the problem.


Would replacing the ivory in one knife help an elephant: No. Would a society banning the sale ivory help an elephant: Many people say yes, you say no. Banning all ivory? Maybe, just because the sale ban might be impossible to police.

Except, that you did say this "Individual hunters, collectors, etc are always the problem, not the organizations that represent them."

That quite appalling, actually insulting to me, I am an individual hunter, and I, with other hunters form groups to make to make things better. Poachers are not hunters. A hunter is not just a killer with a gun. But that's a another issue.

 

[JParanee]

This will problae be the last time I weight in on this and I respect everyone's opinion and I understand all of them

There are two issues here

One should knife Rights be involved

The answer is yes

Do I see why many think not ?

Yes I do

ALot of you are young and have not been exposed to the larger picture and like myself really have no interest in Ivory handled knives

But younger knife admires do not seem to understand the amount of knives through out time that have been made with Ivory handles

We are not just talking about modern made knives but pieces of history

Yes Doug was given funds to fight for a portion of the knife owning community

There is no cover up

No mystery

A group of knife collectors donated funds to him to speak out on their rights

Does a group that you might not be part of have a right to the same rights of an organization that you have ?

I think they do

I don't like Karambits but if knife rights gets a donation to help fight for the rights of that knife buying population I'm not gonna quite the club

If you think Doug is dressed in an Ivory Tusk costume running around the SHOT show your wrong

It is just another issue he is addressing

Everyone's interest is important not just mine and yours

So on to the elephant and what will help them

A little about myself

I have tarveled extensively in at least four countries in Africa amd many in Asia

I do not travel like a tourist

I do not stay at resorts and go to parks and do the balloon rides

In my traveling I see the real indigenous people and the countries that I'm in not what governments and travel agents that are promoting tourism want you to see

i have seen things of such beauty that I was awed ......... But I have seen such utter despair that words can not describe it

In one moment you see something that makes you say that is so wonderful there must be a god and in the next moment you see something that makes you think how could there be

What the majority of most of you will never understand is Africa

While I was there I spemt a lot of tome in very remote places , the Selous in Tanzania the Omay in Zimbabwe to name a few

I have seen elephants thriving and I have seen areas with none

You see the same trackers amd skinners that I was spending time with if they could not find employment in their fields still have to feed their families so guess what they where when not employed

This might upset many people but the average indigenous African does not care one bit for the animals, he only cares for what it will take to get him food for his family etc

Life and death in remote Africa is matter of fact . If you have 8 children 3 are expected to die. This is reality

20 + years ago when I first started going there 70 % percent of the population had aids in some of the cities

Yes there are many good people but life is different there and life and death in rural Africa is very matter of fact

Once I was told by an old man that introduced sport hunting in former Rhodeshia which is now Zimbabwe that the average African native would cut every tree down with out ever planting another. They would shoot every animal if not stopped

This man was Barry Styles and he was a legend and a true pioneer

They simple only live for today

They could have 8 children that were suffering from malnutrition and trade a cow for a new 14 year old bride and have another 3 kids

Contraceptives like condoms were not thought highly of . Hence the high aids rate

They simple live for the day

People in this harsh of a life have no other choice

My point is no matter what well meaning folks say here and no matter how hard they flap there save the elephant patches that they paid 25 bucks for after they see the next save the elephant video produced by animal extremists it ain't gonna help

The only thing that can save the elephant on the ground where they exist is controlled game management practices put in place my biologists doing quotas

In areas that were maintained and managed by hunting concessions the animals were thriving

Many a PH and game scout has put their life on the line protecting the elephants

By putting absolute and total bans on Ivory you are taking away major funding that comes from licensing and hunting concessions

If a hunter can not legally bring back his cities permitted Ivory chances are he will not go and spend the funds that keep the elephants safe

The hunting comcession staff will need to find other means to feed their families and again you just added to the extermination of the species

What would you do ?

Let your family starve ?

When a hunter goes to Africa to hunt a country like Botswana or Tanzania he drops 30 K and up

When a tourist goes to Africa he drops 5 k

So yes legal Ivory harvest thru sport hunting is the only way to sustain these animals because it's not what you think or what you do that is gonna make a dam bit of difference.

It is the indigenous people of Africa that will make a difference and remeber as long as the elephant has value to them they will protect it

If it has no value they will slaughter it for pennies because THEY DO NOT CARE what someone sitting anywhere but in their shoes has to say

With starvation, genecide and death happening every day would you ?

The greatest conservationist have always been sportsman

Thank TR for your parks

A ban of elephant ivory will not save one elephant because in reality it is an attack on the killing of all elephants which will lead to a total extermination of the species

I know all of you mean well but in reality your not writing big enough checks to stop the killing of elephants with a ban instituted

When you have elephants encroaching on people and people are living in harsh conditions the elephants will always loose

 

[craytab]

Very interesting, thanks.

I would be less surprised to find something like this in, say, Boston, with its long and storied mob history, etc.

I know right? I think it is 2.5" in Boston. Of course the rest of PA has no limit because the law is so vague (no autos or daggers). Then again, I think it was only a couple years ago that you couldn't sell a motor cycle on Sunday in PA. Don't get me started on beer and wine sales. Many of our laws make no sense.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Mark, just wanted to say, regardless of my disagreeing with you, you are doing a great job fielding this thread. Its an issue that's easy to get hot about on either side I guess. As many people as you've been responding to and heated as it is I'd eventually flip on someone! Lol.

I stand where I stand, but still think knife rights is a great organization. I just feel representing this particular cause would not further the overall mission they were created to address.

If you're ever in Fairbanks I'll buy you a beer.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Of course, my opinion may not count to many here.
I live in Canada, so Knife Rights does nothing for me.
And we aren't banning any mammoths around here either.

Heck, I can get Narwhal tusks if I have the cash.

Yes, you are a lucky man. Except you have Justin Bieber. I am afraid you too will be seeing similar bans. It's just a matter of time so get ready to fight them.

 

[stabman]

Yes, you are a lucky man. Except you have Justin Bieber. I am afraid you too will be seeing similar bans. It's just a matter of time so get ready to fight them.

I think the Inuit will be our salvation there.
Try banning mammoth, walrus ivory or narwhal, and they'll protest like mad.
The government doesn't want to piss them off.

Now a ban of Justin Bieber...that could get support both sides of the border.

 

[bakofried]

@JParanee
I will note that just because something is tradition, that does not make it good. Are ivory handled knives and guns old and memorable? Yes. Does that mean the ivory itself has some special quality? No. It's an ornamental material at best. If the old tools you claim have so much soul and so many stories really do, then the monetary value should be irrelevant. Furthermore, the ivory is incidental to those stories.

Also, please note that Africa is a huge place, and is biologically, culturally, and geographically diverse on an awesome scale. Your bush experiences may encapsulate 1% of what it is like to grow up and live in Africa, and your claims that Africans themselves don't care is easily refutable by the development of local anti poaching groups. There's a serious case of white man's burden going on when you assume that just because an animal doesn't defecate money, the indigenous people will slaughter it.

 

[JParanee]

@JParanee
I will note that just because something is tradition, that does not make it good. Are ivory handled knives and guns old and memorable? Yes. Does that mean the ivory itself has some special quality? No. It's an ornamental material at best. If the old tools you claim have so much soul and so many stories really do, then the monetary value should be irrelevant. Furthermore, the ivory is incidental to those stories.

Also, please note that Africa is a huge place, and is biologically, culturally, and geographically diverse on an awesome scale. Your bush experiences may encapsulate 1% of what it is like to grow up and live in Africa, and your claims that Africans themselves don't care is easily refutable by the development of local anti poaching groups. There's a serious case of white man's burden going on when you assume that just because an animal doesn't defecate money, the indigenous people will slaughter it.

Okay I've been to four countries that have elephant

I have seen elephant hunted

I have seen how in Tanzania where Giraffes are protected how locals set wire snares 20 feet up so they catch them by the neck

Not a nice sight

The guys that were pulling down the snares were the guys running the concession not the government or animal rights activist

People that are vested in the animals will always be the best stewards

Buy a plane ticket spend some time and than give me your opinion

 

[JParanee]

@JParanee
I will note that just because something is tradition, that does not make it good. Are ivory handled knives and guns old and memorable? Yes. Does that mean the ivory itself has some special quality? No. It's an ornamental material at best. If the old tools you claim have so much soul and so many stories really do, then the monetary value should be irrelevant. Furthermore, the ivory is incidental to those stories.

Also, please note that Africa is a huge place, and is biologically, culturally, and geographically diverse on an awesome scale. Your bush experiences may encapsulate 1% of what it is like to grow up and live in Africa, and your claims that Africans themselves don't care is easily refutable by the development of local anti poaching groups. There's a serious case of white man's burden going on when you assume that just because an animal doesn't defecate money, the indigenous people will slaughter it.

To address your comment on Ivory handled knives

As I have said I do not care for the material on knife handles but I do understand if a group of collectors of such want to donate to an organization that they belong to to fight for their right to preserve their Ivory handled knives that are mostly from ancient artifacts

Next it will be stag than wood

That is fine with me because I can get my own stag Having been using and buying mostly synthetic handled knives these days anyway

 

[AVigil]

When people start talking in generalities about Africa lets keep something in perspective

 

[Doug C]

@JParanee
I will note that just because something is tradition, that does not make it good. Are ivory handled knives and guns old and memorable? Yes. Does that mean the ivory itself has some special quality? No. It's an ornamental material at best. If the old tools you claim have so much soul and so many stories really do, then the monetary value should be irrelevant. Furthermore, the ivory is incidental to those stories.

Also, please note that Africa is a huge place, and is biologically, culturally, and geographically diverse on an awesome scale. Your bush experiences may encapsulate 1% of what it is like to grow up and live in Africa, and your claims that Africans themselves don't care is easily refutable by the development of local anti poaching groups. There's a serious case of white man's burden going on when you assume that just because an animal doesn't defecate money, the indigenous people will slaughter it.

Bakofried,

When was the last time you were in Africa ?
Or do you reside there ?

Doug

 

[22-rimfire]

What's your point Avigil? It's a big place.

 

[RedLynx]

I think the Inuit will be our salvation there.
Try banning mammoth, walrus ivory or narwhal, and they'll protest like mad.
The government doesn't want to piss them off.

Now a ban of Justin Bieber...that could get support both sides of the border.

If a ban on Justin Beiber will save even a single elephant... count me in.

 

[RedLynx]

If you're ever in Fairbanks I'll buy you a beer.

I know this wasn't directed at me but in recent months I've seen a fair bit of photography that has made me want to visit Alaska, including its more remote regions. I don't get around well, mobility-wise, but I'm hoping to take some time to travel the less traveled Alaskan paths, one day.

 

[AVigil]

What's your point Avigil? It's a big place.

That is the point.

It is to large to make generalities about the people just because some time was spent there a some locals.

In Africa they are actively working on conservation of the wild life.

Lets the USA be a leader in not hindering their efforts by staying the second largest market for illegal ivory.

Thank goodness the Sliver Back Mountain Gorilla hides, Teeth, hands and feet did not become popular in the USA with knifemakers or we could be talking about "Farming" and hunting them for their own good.

 

[egally08]

That is the point.

It is to large to make generalities about the people just because some time was spent there a some locals.

That is no point at all.

All you need is a little knowledge of human behavior. When it comes down to your family starving, or - Not - The Not starving always wins. This time the "Not starving" is killing an elephant for the meat and monetary value of it's ivory.

 

[JParanee]

That is the point.

It is to large to make generalities about the people just because some time was spent there a some locals.

In Africa they are actively working on conservation of the wild life.

Lets the USA be a leader in not hindering their efforts by staying the second largest market for illegal ivory.

Thank goodness the Sliver Back Mountain Gorilla hides, Teeth, hands and feet did not become popular in the USA with knifemakers or we could be talking about "Farming" and hunting them for their own good.

Adam I could care less about Ivory handled knives

But poaching is poaching from Asia to Africa

The people that are poaching need a revenue to replace the revenue of poaching Ivory or they will not stop

It matters not what someone in the US thinks it matters what the guy about to machine gun and chain saw out a bunch ot tusks thinks

 

[RedLynx]

That is the point.

It is to large to make generalities about the people just because some time was spent there a some locals.

In Africa they are actively working on conservation of the wild life.

Lets the USA be a leader in not hindering their efforts by staying the second largest market for illegal ivory.

Thank goodness the Sliver Back Mountain Gorilla hides, Teeth, hands and feet did not become popular in the USA with knifemakers or we could be talking about "Farming" and hunting them for their own good.

I don't care for ivory handled knives and am a strong proponent of wildlife conservation, in this case, elephant conservation.

But you do know that often, animals are hunted for their own good, don't you? I hope you realize that. It isn't just something hunters say to make themselves feel better (not that they need to in the first place.)

 

[AVigil]

Adam I could care less about Ivory handled knives

But poaching is poaching from Asia to Africa

The people that are poaching need a revenue to replace the revenue of poaching Ivory or they will not stop

It matters not what someone in the US thinks it matters what the guy about to machine gun and chain saw out a bunch ot tusks thinks

Joe,

I understand that.

Poachers are killed or arrested all the time and they do need more $$$ to squash the poaching.

They are dropping the hammer on ivory owners hard now and want to stop the export of the tons of ivory out of the USA as well and not feed the ivory market. When you invest in a commodity you take the risk of losing on that investment.

That day is at hand for Elephant Ivory.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I think the Inuit will be our salvation there.
Try banning mammoth, walrus ivory or narwhal, and they'll protest like mad.
The government doesn't want to piss them off.

Now a ban of Justin Bieber...that could get support both sides of the border.

From a knife owners standpoint the Inuit thing will save you. From a knife makers or sellers perspective you will be in the same boat as everybody else. We have Inuits too, ain't helping.