Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

RedLynx said:
But you do know that often, animals are hunted for their own good, don't you? I hope you realize that. It isn't just something hunters say to make themselves feel better (not that they need to in the first place.)
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Of course....

But that is not the answer for all conservation projects. I wont even ask you if you know that because of course you do.
 
RedLynx said:
I know this wasn't directed at me but in recent months I've seen a fair bit of photography that has made me want to visit Alaska, including its more remote regions. I don't get around well, mobility-wise, but I'm hoping to take some time to travel the less traveled Alaskan paths, one day.
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I'll buy you a beer too.
 
AVigil said:
That is the point.

It is to large to make generalities about the people just because some time was spent there a some locals.

In Africa they are actively working on conservation of the wild life.

Lets the USA be a leader in not hindering their efforts by staying the second largest market for illegal ivory.

Thank goodness the Sliver Back Mountain Gorilla hides, Teeth, hands and feet did not become popular in the USA with knifemakers or we could be talking about "Farming" and hunting them for their own good.
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Now you have made the big mistake that many people make. The US is not the second largest behind China in the consumption of illegal ivory. It is the second in the world in the consumption of ivory. There is a huge leap between "ivory" and "Illegal ivory" check your facts and get back to me.
 
AVigil said:
Joe,

I understand that.

Poachers are killed or arrested all the time and they do need more $$$ to squash the poaching.

They are dropping the hammer on ivory owners hard now and want to stop the export of the tons of ivory out of the USA as well and not feed the ivory market. When you invest in a commodity you take the risk of losing on that investment.

That day is at hand for Elephant Ivory.
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Show me where tons of ivory are being smuggled out of the US
 
AVigil said:
Of course....

But that is not the answer for all conservation projects. I wont even ask you if you know that because of course you do.
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True. I can't remember exactly where you stand on this issue as a whole because this has become a very long thread and there are people for, against, and like me, who are mostly okay with this, but also don't want people like Mark and others to take a hit, especially as he isn't using African elephant ivory in any of his projects, if I recall correctly.

I would hazard guess that the ban in my state will probably happen, simply because I know my state pretty well and which way it tends to swing on which things, more or less (sometimes it still surprises me though). I think the only thing I would change is, people who receive jewelry or other items, particularly of mammoth ivory, should be able to sell them without fear of prosecution. That's just how I feel about that one.

I think it was Mark who referenced the story of the elderly couple wanting to get rid of some heirlooms for about $40 and were fined $2500. That right there was a tragedy, in my opinion.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Show me where tons of ivory are being smuggled out of the US
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There are tons of Ivory in the USA...right?

Read the last paragraph of this Fish and Wild life article http://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/Elephant-Ivory-Investigations.pdf

"Service seizures of unlawfully imported
elephant ivory at ports of entry over the
years have ranged from whole elephant
tusks and large carvings to knife handles,
jewelry, and tourist trinkets. With
the demand for ivory surging in Asia,
inspectors have also started intercepting
ivory being smuggled out of the United
States, making inspections of outbound
passengers, freight, and mail parcels
increasingly important to ensure that
ivory held in the United States does not
find its way to illegal markets outside of
the country"
 
Of the three things we have talked about

Banning the sale of ivory in the US

Taking extra measures to stop ivory at the border

and helping Africans stop poaching by helping them fund game guards.

The first one might or might not help stop poaching in Africa, many think it won't, some think it will but for sure it will harm honest descent Americans that never did anything wrong. A lot of them.

The second one, if given a high enough priority, won't stop poaching in Africa but it will be a lot more effective at making sure no new ivory comes to the U.S. than any of these bans. Cost a lot less to US taxpayers and be a lot easier to enforce.

The last one is for sure already helping save some elephants, we know this to be a fact. With enough funding, it could save the elephants in the places where they need saving.

So of the three, why so much opposition to the third? Why are those of you that are proponents of the ban so much that way?
 
AVigil said:
Joe,

I understand that.

Poachers are killed or arrested all the time and they do need more $$$ to squash the poaching.

They are dropping the hammer on ivory owners hard now and want to stop the export of the tons of ivory out of the USA as well and not feed the ivory market. When you invest in a commodity you take the risk of losing on that investment.

That day is at hand for Elephant Ivory.
Click to expand...

I do sadly agree with your last point
 
AVigil said:
There are tons of Ivory in the USA...right?

Read the last paragraph of this Fish and Wild life article http://www.fws.gov/le/pdf/Elephant-Ivory-Investigations.pdf

"Service seizures of unlawfully imported
elephant ivory at ports of entry over the
years have ranged from whole elephant
tusks and large carvings to knife handles,
jewelry, and tourist trinkets. With
the demand for ivory surging in Asia,
inspectors have also started intercepting
ivory being smuggled out of the United
States, making inspections of outbound
passengers, freight, and mail parcels
increasingly important to ensure that
ivory held in the United States does not
find its way to illegal markets outside of
the country"
Click to expand...

You said tons, I want figures, man. I will make some calls and see how much of a problem that is. The numbers cant be very high because they don't show up on the ETIS reports. And what about my other point about your misquote of the US being the 2nd... you can't just gloss over that one.
 
So let me be clear: if I am arguing that a few jaunts in the bush is not a significant sampling of African culture, why would I buy into the idea that a plane ticket would support your ideas (or mine, for that matter)?

Have I been? No. But that doesn't put a dent in my criticisms.

Furthermore, the idea that they will come for our ivory, then our stag, then our wood handled knives is nonsense. This isn't a slippery slope: this is an appropriate response to a potential ecological disaster. And if a certain type of wood or horn was about to be wiped out, yes, I'd support action against that too. But I'd hope that purported outdoorsmen would have the wherewithal to realize that they might not get their favorite thing for a little while.

For those who argue that this will only impact legal ivory, I call bull. Without permitting and registration, you can't put the onus of distinguishing pre-ban ivory from illegal ivory on a beat cop.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Of the three things we have talked about

Banning the sale of ivory in the US

Taking extra measures to stop ivory at the border

and helping Africans stop poaching by helping them fund game guards.

The first one might or might not help stop poaching in Africa, many think it won't, some think it will but for sure it will harm honest descent Americans that never did anything wrong. A lot of them.

The second one, if given a high enough priority, won't stop poaching in Africa but it will be a lot more effective at making sure no new ivory comes to the U.S. than any of these bans. Cost a lot less to US taxpayers and be a lot easier to enforce.

The last one is for sure already helping save some elephants, we know this to be a fact. With enough funding, it could save the elephants in the places where they need saving.

So of the three, why so much opposition to the third? Why are those of you that are proponents of the ban so much that way?
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Mark,

I personally think number 3 would do a good deal to help the elephants, I'd be interested to hear from those that don't think so, as well. Perhaps there are factors which I am not considering.
 
bakofried said:
For those who argue that this will only impact legal ivory, I call bull. Without permitting and registration, you can't put the onus of distinguishing pre-ban ivory from illegal ivory on a beat cop.
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Actually, you can, and it would be more than appropriate to do so. They have to distinguish between legal and illegal items, actions, etc, all the time. It's a huge part of their job. I think one can have a valid opinion on the African situation without having been there provided they are well-read, well-informed, and even-handed, though I do think Joe brings great firsthand knowledge and perspective to this. But I can't agree with your last statement, as it doesn't really make sense.
 
Now that the elephant has been made economically worthless, I continue to look forward to their swift extinction, along with the communist thugs who worship at their alter. I will spend not a cent in their preservation and would volunteer to personally put down the last of these beasts. This is not about elephants or ivory, it is about freedom vs. totalitarianism and I know which side I am on.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
Now that the elephant has been made economically worthless, I continue to look forward to their swift extinction, along with the communist thugs who worship at their alter. I will spend not a cent in their preservation and would volunteer to personally put down the last of these beasts. This is not about elephants or ivory, it is about freedom vs. totalitarianism and I know which side I am on.

n2s
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You meant to say "altar," you jokester you!
 
Mark Knapp said:
You said tons, I want figures, man. I will make some calls and see how much of a problem that is. The numbers cant be very high because they don't show up on the ETIS reports. And what about my other point about your misquote of the US being the 2nd... you can't just gloss over that one.
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I said tons because there are tons of Ivory in the USA after 2 hundred years coming in....You know that.

Mark what would you guess the amount of total elephant ivory in the USA is?


The source I quoted is from http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/S-F-ranks-No-2-U-S-city-for-elephant-killing-5650551.php

"And Chinatown is one the top spots to buy ivory in the United States, which ranks second - behind China - on the list of nations with the biggest ivory markets, according to experts.
The killing in Africa is so extensive that the U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife this year announced that it is beginning to tighten regulations to ban the import of ivory or elephant tusks for commercial purposes."

I did not gloss over it. You just did not get a chance to read all those articles I posted discussing the matter.
 
I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil and on-topic. It is appreciated.
 
bakofried said:
So let me be clear: if I am arguing that a few jaunts in the bush is not a significant sampling of African culture, why would I buy into the idea that a plane ticket would support your ideas (or mine, for that matter)?

Have I been? No. But that doesn't put a dent in my criticisms.

Furthermore, the idea that they will come for our ivory, then our stag, then our wood handled knives is nonsense. This isn't a slippery slope: this is an appropriate response to a potential ecological disaster. And if a certain type of wood or horn was about to be wiped out, yes, I'd support action against that too. But I'd hope that purported outdoorsmen would have the wherewithal to realize that they might not get their favorite thing for a little while.

For those who argue that this will only impact legal ivory, I call bull. Without permitting and registration, you can't put the onus of distinguishing pre-ban ivory from illegal ivory on a beat cop.
Click to expand...

Wait, please explain your last point again, I'm not following you.
 
bakofried said:
So let me be clear: if I am arguing that a few jaunts in the bush is not a significant sampling of African culture, why would I buy into the idea that a plane ticket would support your ideas (or mine, for that matter)?

Have I been? No. But that doesn't put a dent in my criticisms.

Furthermore, the idea that they will come for our ivory, then our stag, then our wood handled knives is nonsense. This isn't a slippery slope: this is an appropriate response to a potential ecological disaster. And if a certain type of wood or horn was about to be wiped out, yes, I'd support action against that too. But I'd hope that purported outdoorsmen would have the wherewithal to realize that they might not get their favorite thing for a little while.

For those who argue that this will only impact legal ivory, I call bull. Without permitting and registration, you can't put the onus of distinguishing pre-ban ivory from illegal ivory on a beat cop.
Click to expand...


Okay

Even when you have a few pages back a person from South Africa making comments to support what I am saying you still don't seem to get my point

You seem to think I went on a week tour or something

I have been going to Africa for almost 25 years

I have friends in Africa that I keeep in touch with so my impressions are not just what I saw

Are families even came together to do Disney a few years ago

A very large landowner and ex SA rally car driver for Toyota buddy of mine will be here in the staes in a few weeks and I will see him than and I am sure he will give me some updates and what the current consensus

These are land owners , cattle ranchers outfitters and PHs

They make their living from the animals and the land I would think they have a good understanding of what is taking place

But you know :)
 
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