Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

Actually the man made materials we have nowadays are far better suited for knife handles than real ivory imho .

I totally agree with this! I said so in my first post in this thread. I don't collect knives to collect them. I collect knives to use them. Frankly I find Ivory, or Bone, or Wood, or what ever "natural" material completely inadequate for use as a knife handle. I don't even like stacked leather.

That said, this is not what this thread is about what so ever.
 
this is a good study, I didn't just google for it. I was referred to it by other reading. I highly suggest looking at it before debating restrictions on your own people.

http://www.c4ads.org/#!project-highlights/c21l1

Quoted from the article you posted.....

"Japan’s ivory is routed from across East
Asia, including through China, Thailand, Hong Kong, South Korea, and Taiwan,
140 and significantly the United States, which had the second highest frequency after China 141.


Thanks for posting that.
 
Quoted from the article you posted.....

"Japan’s ivory is routed from across East
Asia, including through China, Thailand, Hong Kong, South Korea, and Taiwan,
140 and significantly the United States, which had the second highest frequency after China 141.


Thanks for posting that.

Sure if you ignore the rest of what was said about who is in the supply network, who is doing the leg work, and who is doing the consuming. Along with how being the statistical second weighs in comparison with what is reported by our own domestic agency on volume of Ivory and its sources.

You make a stunning case for stripping Americans of their property rights.
 
Sure if you ignore the rest of what was said about who is in the supply network, who is doing the leg work, and who is doing the consuming. Along with how being the statistical second weighs in comparison with what is reported by our own domestic agency on volume of Ivory and its sources.

You make a stunning case for stripping Americans of their property rights.

No one is ignoring Africa, China, Japan and the supply network.

But some seem to be ignoring what part the USA plays in this
 
this is a good study, I didn't just google for it. I was referred to it by other reading. I highly suggest looking at it before debating restrictions on your own people.

http://www.c4ads.org/#!project-highlights/c21l1

This is a very good study which indicates that the illegal ivory trade primarily moves to China and Southeast Asia (90% est). The report also indicates that China has stepped up their enforcement. With the amount of money involved, I suspect there is a lot of corruption with officials looking the other way.

The US already has a ban on ivory importation except under special circumstances as I understand it. These new bans impact regular people who might have objects that are made with ivory and that is where I draw the line. Like firearms, I don't believe you can legitimately make some illegal that has been legal with the stoke of a pen. I have no problem with new ivory and it is up to the officials and enforcement to determine what is what, not pick on regular US citizens.
 
This issue is no more about freedom vs totalitarianism any more than bans of any number of other commercial activities, practices, or trading.

You say this with a lot of conviction. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it so. Anyone who wants to approach this logically has to temporarily forget about elephants and how they feel about them. What is being proposed is a ban on a product which has been traded commercially for thousands of years, including within the US until recently. It is an innocuous product that does not in and off itself cause health issues or criminal risks; we are talking about piano keys, key chains, chess pieces and the like. And the nexus for regulation is at best weak if not a complete fantasy. The elephants and other animals who were harvested for the vast majority of the ivory in U.S. died long before any of us were born; in the case of mammoth tens of thousands of years; nor can it be argued that the confiscation of these items will bring any of these beast back to life. It is doubtful that such a ban would help any of the remaining elephants in the wild. They are being exterminated because of the challenged posed by agricultural development in parts of the world where civil wars and weak government prevail. Perhaps the focus should be on the millions of Africans who have been butchered, but that would be a different topic altogether.

So on the basis of this dubious argument, we are willing to invest a vast fortune to create a policing force capable of detecting the movement of your great grandmothers ivory pendant. And on the basis of such a proposition, we are willing to confiscate lawfully acquired property and punish all involved. Someone is using your emotional ties to Disney's Dumbo to justify the establishment of a police state and the weakening of your property rights. Again, if this had anything to do about elephants there would be much more effective propositions to look at; including spending such fortune to purchase and staff elephant preserves or perhaps aiding key countries to regain the necessary stability so as to be able to protect their populations of both people and animals.

Assuming that we are blind enough to be led down this road, what would prevent the authorities from designating additional prohibitions on other products? What if the dictate said that you could no longer fuel, service, or transfer your gasoline powered vehicles; after all, these things are said to be the cause of global warming, wouldn't such a thing also contribute to the demise of your precious elephants? What if they decide to ban wood and paper products, I mean those trees should be preserved, it is they who primarily filter the excess carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Allowing you to buy a wooden chair means that some tree somewhere will need to die. So perhaps no more chairs. Then again our homes incorporate wood in their construction. There is no need for that. We can learn to use aluminum studs and other man made materials. Let there be air.

But, aren't those same man-made materials often made from evil petroleum. How can we allow such a devastating industry to continue to be rewarded.....

My point is that once you go down this road you set a precedent. In this case a very dangerous precedent that allows the authorities to confiscate antique and fossil ivory because they care not distinguish between that and the stuff that may have been harvested last week. We are back at the "kill them all and let god sort them out" level of due process. And nothing that you own can be safe from this mechanism once it becomes accepted law. When they finally come for your smart phone, you will say nothing, because there will be nothing left to be said; a enslaved peasant has no rights, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

n2s
 
You say this with a lot of conviction. Unfortunately, that doesn't make it so. Anyone who wants to approach this logically has to temporarily forget about elephants and how they feel about them. What is being proposed is a ban on a product which has been traded commercially for thousands of years, including within the US until recently. It is an innocuous product that does not in and off itself cause health issues or criminal risks; we are talking about piano keys, key chains, chess pieces and the like. And the nexus for regulation is at best weak if not a complete fantasy. The elephants and other animals who were harvested for the vast majority of the ivory in U.S. died long before any of us were born; in the case of mammoth tens of thousands of years; nor can it be argued that the confiscation of these items will bring any of these beast back to life. It is doubtful that such a ban would help any of the remaining elephants in the wild. They are being exterminated because of the challenged posed by agricultural development in parts of the world where civil wars and weak government prevail. Perhaps the focus should be on the millions of Africans who have been butchered, but that would be a different topic altogether.

So on the basis of this dubious argument, we are willing to invest a vast fortune to create a policing force capable of detecting the movement of your great grandmothers ivory pendant. And on the basis of such a proposition, we are willing to confiscate lawfully acquired property and punish all involved. Someone is using your emotional ties to Disney's Dumbo to justify the establishment of a police state and the weakening of your property rights. Again, if this had anything to do about elephants there would be much more effective propositions to look at; including spending such fortune to purchase and staff elephant preserves or perhaps aiding key countries to regain the necessary stability so as to be able to protect their populations of both people and animals.

Assuming that we are blind enough to be led down this road, what would prevent the authorities from designating additional prohibitions on other products? What if the dictate said that you could no longer fuel, service, or transfer your gasoline powered vehicles; after all, these things are said to be the cause of global warming, wouldn't such a thing also contribute to the demise of your precious elephants? What if they decide to ban wood and paper products, I mean those trees should be preserved, it is they who primarily filter the excess carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Allowing you to buy a wooden chair means that some tree somewhere will need to die. So perhaps no more chairs. Then again our homes incorporate wood in their construction. There is no need for that. We can learn to use aluminum studs and other man made materials. Let there be air.

But, aren't those same man-made materials often made from evil petroleum. How can we allow such a devastating industry to continue to be rewarded.....

My point is that once you go down this road you set a precedent. In this case a very dangerous precedent that allows the authorities to confiscate antique and fossil ivory because they care not distinguish between that and the stuff that may have been harvested last week. We are back at the "kill them all and let god sort them out" level of due process. And nothing that you own can be safe from this mechanism once it becomes accepted law. When they finally come for your smart phone, you will say nothing, because there will be nothing left to be said; a enslaved peasant has no rights, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

n2s

Dammit, you make a compelling case with some points that should be considered. I wish it were not so. Thanks for posting and I hope leghog can respond soon, I'd like to hear from him as well.
 
Intelligence demands that this is what must stop first!

disgusting_zps0bfaa30c.png


And the Chinese State sponsored Ivory industry must be stopped from acting internationally. What they do domestically is their own business.
 
I still don't see how this legislation violates any existing property rights.

I could see if I was in the commercial space I'd be sweating.
 
Not2sharp, the same argument could be made for firearms. Of course in the case of firearms, there is that pesky Second Amendment, but once a precedent is set it can be applied to many products or materials without just compensation.
 
Not2sharp, the same argument could be made for firearms. Of course in the case of firearms, there is that pesky Second Amendment, but once a precedent is set it can be applied to many products or materials without just compensation.

Which was the mechanism used by the NAZI's to end opposition to their seizure of power. Outlaw the product and you control the man over whom you hold the power to punish and imprison.

n2s
 
I might add most importantly-resale of the product as well, as it appears that ownership is not in question for private citizens.
 
I read this whole thread and sincerely considered the pro-ivory position. In short, I find it to be puerile and totally lacking in substance. Based on the response to this thread, I am not alone.

Much of the discussion about “property rights” and the disjointed ramblings about liberty sound eerily similar to the US pro-slavery movement in the 1860. I am totally unmoved by “hardship” that a total ban will place on those that own ivory. Selling and trading ivory, regardless of the source, indirectly supports poaching and the global ivory industry

I am not a fan of the current administration, but I 100% support their work on this issue. I totally support a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory.
 
Quoted from the article you posted.....

"Japan’s ivory is routed from across East
Asia, including through China, Thailand, Hong Kong, South Korea, and Taiwan,
140 and significantly the United States, which had the second highest frequency after China 141.


Thanks for posting that.

It's a long report, can you tell me where it is in the report?
 
I read this whole thread and sincerely considered the pro-ivory position. In short, I find it to be puerile and totally lacking in substance.

pu·er·ile adjective \ˈpyu̇(-ə)r-əl, -ˌī(-ə)l\

: silly or childish especially in a way that shows a lack of seriousness or good judgment


How nice of you to insult the maturity and intelligence of those who don't think the exact way you do...way to keep the moral high-ground. :rolleyes:
 
I read this whole thread and sincerely considered the pro-ivory position. In short, I find it to be puerile and totally lacking in substance. Based on the response to this thread, I am not alone.

Much of the discussion about “property rights” and the disjointed ramblings about liberty sound eerily similar to the US pro-slavery movement in the 1860. I am totally unmoved by “hardship” that a total ban will place on those that own ivory. Selling and trading ivory, regardless of the source, indirectly supports poaching and the global ivory industry

I am not a fan of the current administration, but I 100% support their work on this issue. I totally support a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory.

The only thing that bothers me about the decision is the way in which it was made... unless I've been misinformed it was an executive action made without any input from representation of the people... So while I think the decision is (mostly) good, the way in which it was made is... distasteful, to say the least.

I do have to echo Stab's thoughts above though, there are many hardworking people in this thread and I don't want to see their livelihoods take a hit.

We really should not be bringing slaves or Nazis into this discussion, in my opinion.

But, we've gone 21 pages remaining mostly civil and logical. Very cool.
 
this is a good study, I didn't just google for it. I was referred to it by other reading. I highly suggest looking at it before debating restrictions on your own people.

http://www.c4ads.org/#!project-highlights/c21l1

Hi Ron, Thank you for finding this, sometimes it's not easy. This is the kind of study I have been talking about. Some people will say I only like it because it supports my argument. But really, I have my way of thinking because of reports like this. I read everything I could find on the subject and formed my way of thinking. I did not have a philosophy and then search out the stuff that supported it.

I like this report because it is the most up to date information we have. It is just the facts, not someones slant on the issue. We are left to form our own conclusions from the facts. It is not sensationalism. It is scientific research. It has footnotes that show the sources for all the data.

I like it because of those reasons not because it supports my argument. I haven't even read it yet, I suspect that it supports my argument but I don't know.

Thanks for this valuable contribution to the discussion.

Adam, do you recognize the difference between this and the articles you listed?
 
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