Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

Mark Knapp said:
I have already showed a couple of times what leads me to say it's political. And if you think the things I have said in this thread are because of my political leaning then I guess after all this, you still don't know me very well. I don't know what else I can tell you.

After reading the C4ADS report, do you still think there is a huge problem with poached ivory coming into the US?

Do you think the magazine articles you posted have more credibility than the scientific research in the C4ADS report?
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I posted information from the dept of justice as well as NSFW not just "magazine articles"

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#11

"Possession of lawfully imported and acquired elephant ivory items.
What is the U.S. role in the illegal elephant ivory trade?
The United States is among the world’s largest consumers of wildlife, both legal and illegal. As with any black market trade, it is difficult to determine the exact market value or rank the U.S. role in comparison to other nations. However, we remain a significant ivory market, and we must continue to be vigilant in combating illegal ivory trade. By effectively controlling illegal ivory trade at home and assisting elephant range states and consumer countries around the world, we can have a significant impact on elephant conservation."

When your evidence is compelling enough to convince them otherwise then it will convince me.

You keep saying "it's political".... well Mark what in this world is not political? You keep chanting this mantra claiming "the NSFW is political and not about the elephants" and they would claim otherwise.

For some it is about the elephants for others is it about the ivory.
 
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AVigil said:
I posted information from the dept of justice as well as NSFW not just "magazine articles"

"Possession of lawfully imported and acquired elephant ivory items.
What is the U.S. role in the illegal elephant ivory trade?
The United States is among the world’s largest consumers of wildlife, both legal and illegal. As with any black market trade, it is difficult to determine the exact market value or rank the U.S. role in comparison to other nations. However, we remain a significant ivory market, and we must continue to be vigilant in combating illegal ivory trade. By effectively controlling illegal ivory trade at home and assisting elephant range states and consumer countries around the world, we can have a significant impact on elephant conservation."

When your evidence is compelling enough to convince them otherwise then it will convince me.

You keep saying "it's political".... well Mark what in this world is not political? You keep chanting this mantra claiming "the NSFW is political and not about the elephants" and they would claim otherwise.

For some it is about the elephants for others is it about the ivory.
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OK, I think I understand you pretty good now. But you realize that quote says "legal and illegal ivory" You must be assuming that the percentage of illegal is much higher than the experts report that it is.
 
Twindog said:
No one knows how much blood ivory is coming to the US. We've seized a few tons over the years, but no one knows how much of the illegal trade we're catching. One percent, 2 percent, 5 percent 10 percent? And everything that goes to China or Thailand or other Asian markets quickly becomes certified as "pre ban" ivory and can enter the US "legally."

The problem with guarding elephants is that their range is massive and often in extremely rugged and remote regions. Several African governments are actively supporting the blood ivory traffic, and no private group could offset that kind of political power. Poachers often go out in groups of 30 or 40 heavily armed, well-funded platoons. Whose going to stop them? The Humane Society? And how do you stop someone from sneaking up and poisoning water holes, as has happened? Africa is just to big and too unstable to guard.
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PS, there is no "pre-act" certificate. Not in the U.S. any way. Before the act, no-one knew there was going to be an act so nothing was certified as "pre-act" and no-one knew we would need to prove ivory was pre-act. Nothing was required, that's the problem. Even if you have legitimate pre-act ivory, there really is no way to prove it unless you have an old shipping receipt. How many shipping receipts do you still have from stuff you shipped over 25 years ago?
 
Mark Knapp said:
OK, I think I understand you pretty good now. But you realize that quote says "legal and illegal ivory" You must be assuming that the percentage of illegal is much higher than the experts report that it is.
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It is like saying "The Mob killed a lot of people, but we only found a few bodies"

And then you come to the conclusion...it must not be that bad because the hard working law enforcement only found a few victims"

Mark... A smugglers job is to smuggle and not get caught. When you do get caught it usually is not the first time you smuggled. So when you catch..ONE GUY...who had a ton of smuggled ivory....chances he is not the only one and the black market is far bigger then you realize or want to consider.
 
I agree with Adam that there is consumption of illegal Ivory here in the USA. "African Modern Elephant Ivory" And while china / Asia seems to be the bigger problem it doesn't mean that the illegal Ivory trade here doesn't need to be stop.

WE, The USA are the biggest consumers of most everything on the planet so I'm sure there is illegal ivory and Rhino horn being consumed, used here.

I think a multi pronged attack is needed on china and the USA. Since I can speak a word of Mandarin I try to help people like Yao Ming,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...na-campaign/2014/09/03/87ebbe2a-d3e1-4283-964

http://yaomingblog.com/elephants/

And one that I am involved with on a small scale.

http://wildaid.org/program/yao-ming-says-no-ivory-and-rhino-horn

So for the folks here that want to do some positive things to help save Elephants and Rhinos these are some avenues for you.
 
AVigil said:
It is like saying "The Mob killed a lot of people, but we only found a few bodies"

And then you come to the conclusion...it must not be that bad because the hard working law enforcement only found a few victims"

Mark... A smugglers job is to smuggle and not get caught. When you do get caught it usually is not the first time you smuggled. So when you catch..ONE GUY...who had a ton of smuggled ivory....chances he is not the only one and the black market is far bigger then you realize or want to consider.
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Not according to the guys that are a lot smarter than you and me, who's job it is to figure these things out. They have assigned a 10% catch rate on it and that number seems to be accepted by the people in the business of figuring that stuff out.
I guess we're done here.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I agree with Adam that there is consumption of illegal Ivory here in the USA. "African Modern Elephant Ivory" And while china / Asia seems to be the bigger problem it doesn't mean that the illegal Ivory trade here doesn't need to be stop.

WE, The USA are the biggest consumers of most everything on the planet so I'm sure there is illegal ivory and Rhino horn being consumed, used here.

I think a multi pronged attack is needed on china and the USA. Since I can speak a word of Mandarin I try to help people like Yao Ming,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...na-campaign/2014/09/03/87ebbe2a-d3e1-4283-964

http://yaomingblog.com/elephants/

And one that I am involved with on a small scale.

http://wildaid.org/program/yao-ming-says-no-ivory-and-rhino-horn

So for the folks here that want to do some positive things to help save Elephants and Rhinos these are some avenues for you.
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I think the problem of poached ivory coming here is much smaller than what you think.

Funny story
I support the work that Yao Ming is doing. I tried to give Wildaid $5,000.00 that I and some other knife makers raised, to help with the work they were doing with Yao Ming. They would not accept our money. I still think they are doing good work though.

I was looking for the Yoa Ming link to post here. That is a great approach, I am sure it will be more effective than anything we do here.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Not according to the guys that are a lot smarter than you and me, who's job it is to figure these things out. They have assigned a 10% catch rate on it and that number seems to be accepted by the people in the business of figuring that stuff out.
I guess we're done here.
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All that means is the smugglers are one step ahead of them and that is how they stay smugglers.

They really have no idea how much illegal ivory is involved and give it a best guess.

Remember the "Ton" they caught a few years ago was already here in the USA. It was not found entering the USA...it was already here and had no clue until they were tipped off.

They totally missed a ton of illegal ivory coming into the USA, luckily they caught it, once it was here, after the fact...they got lucky that time.

All the other smugglers are still smuggling.
 
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AVigil said:
All that means is the smugglers are one step ahead of them and that is how they stay smugglers.

They really have no idea how much illegal ivory is involved and give it a best guess.

Remember the "Ton" they caught a few years ago was already here in the USA. It was not found entering the USA...it was already here and had no clue until they were tipped off.

They totally missed a ton of illegal ivory coming into the USA, luckily they caught it, once it was here, after the fact...they got lucky that time.

All the other smugglers are still smuggling.
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Why would they bring it here though. When it sells for ten times as much in China. That sounds silly to me.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Why would they bring it here though. When it sells for ten times as much in China. That sounds silly to me.
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And yet they do. They are opportunist and some opportunities might be easier for them to move it here due to the circumstance.

Victor Gordon is spending 30 months in prison for that ton of smuglled ivory. Why did he risk it? Because it was worth $800,000.

Maybe they risk it in the USA because they are able to smuggle it in here with ease and it is worth the risk.

They probably have a good laugh that people believe it is not a problem , quoting studies, as they do it under our noses.
 
AVigil said:
And yet they do. They are opportunist and some opportunities might be easier for them to move it here due to the circumstance.

Victor Gordon is spending 30 months in prison for that ton of smuglled ivory. Why did he risk it? Because it was worth $800,000.

Maybe they risk it in the USA because they are able to smuggle it in here with ease and it is worth the risk.

They probably have a good laugh that people believe it is not a problem , quoting studies, as they do it under our noses.
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I'd say that there's more ivory coming in than what they predict, by how much, is anyone's guess.

Adam, do you think the majority of people buying raw ivory in bulk from the smugglers know that it's illegal? I know you can't say for certain, but common sense tells us yes, of course they know. What do you think?
 
AVigil said:
And yet they do. They are opportunist and some opportunities might be easier for them to move it here due to the circumstance.

Victor Gordon is spending 30 months in prison for that ton of smuglled ivory. Why did he risk it? Because it was worth $800,000.

Maybe they risk it in the USA because they are able to smuggle it in here with ease and it is worth the risk.

They probably have a good laugh that people believe it is not a problem , quoting studies, as they do it under our noses.
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I gotta say, I have been in the ivory business for 15 years, I have met with USF&W officers, I have a pretty good relationship with one of them, that I have known for a few years. I know how they work to catch the bad guys. I have worked through the CITES process. I have a federal importers license, I know the scrutiny importers go through. I have been studying these things for 15 years. And for some reason you think you have something to teach me about it.

Victor Gorden was caught 4 years ago when the price of ivory was only $200.00 a pound in China, now it's five times that. There was much more incentive to bring it here four years ago. It's a different world now. His case was the record highest seizure in the history of the U.S. It was under .01% of what gets killed in Africa in a month and you think a ban here will make a dent in the poaching problem in Africa.

I Don't see it.
 
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egally08 said:
I'd say that there's more ivory coming in than what they predict, by how much, is anyone's guess.
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The experts figure they catch 10% of what comes in. In the last four years they don't even show the numbers anymore because it is thought to be insignificant, not worth mentioning.
 
Mark Knapp said:
The experts figure they catch 10% of what comes in. In the last four years they don't even show the numbers anymore because it is thought to be insignificant, not worth mentioning.
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I understand that, but something like this isn't an exact science, I do agree that it's a very small amount compared to the global market. My point was, it doesn't matter how much is coming in since anyone buying raw ivory in America at any real quantity, knows that it's illegal. Therefore a complete ban would have zero effect since they're already engaging in the sale and transfer of illegal ivory.
 
Me thinks this thread didn't go as DougR/Knife Rights anticipated it would.

But it has been a very good thread.
 
Thank you, Adam. You made things very clear as to what is going on with ivory.
I have read enough of this.
rolf
 
egally08 said:
I'd say that there's more ivory coming in than what they predict, by how much, is anyone's guess.

Adam, do you think the majority of people buying raw ivory in bulk from the smugglers know that it's illegal? I know you can't say for certain, but common sense tells us yes, of course they know. What do you think?
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It is shady for sure.


True story.


Last week I was at a knife supply store and a young maker was there with a beautiful ivory handle blade he just finished. It was beautiful. After he left I asked "Where did he get that beautiful ivory scales for that knife?".


They told me he was told of a music store where you could go in and buy ivory. He went in they opened a drawer full of ivory and pulled out pieces for him to choose from. He paid and left.


No paper work, no certificate....nothing but the ivory.

I think people will rationalize about ivory the same way some rationalize buying a stereo from the back of a truck
 
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Mark Knapp said:
I have been studying these things for 15 years. And for some reason you think you have something to teach me about it.
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Mark,

If you wanted to just to lecture us you should have said so.


For some it is about the elephants and for some it is about the ivory.
 
AVigil said:
Mark,

If you wanted to just to lecture us you should have said so.


For some it is about the elephants and for some it is about the ivory.
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For some it is about rights, for some others it is about themselves.
 
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