Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

[ron_m80]

Another good thread on the subject from back in February of last year. I thought there were lots of good posts.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Ban-on-Sale-of-Elephant-Ivory?highlight=ivory

 

[AVigil]

No evidence, all hearsay on your part. What was your intention by sharing?

I was asked what I thought about if people who buy it know it is illegal, and so I shared that because the young knifemaker bought the ivory like any other handle material and had no clue if it was legal or not. He did not get any paperwork with the ivory.

That's why I shared it.

 

[AVigil]

...for some others it is about themselves.

That is very true.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would never purchase from a commercial establishment any ivory that I believed to be illegal in any fashion whats so ever. It is always possible that ivory that is used in making a knife handle could be construed as being illegal. The simple explanation for that is that the knife maker has the same problem getting any kind of certification as a private citizen relative to the age or when the ivory was imported into the USA. But there are always a small proportion of people who do illegal things for profit. That is human nature whether it be in Africa, China, or the USA. The potential fines and the risk of such far outweigh any kind of normal gain that might be achieved by the private citizen or knife maker here in the USA.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

I would never purchase from a commercial establishment any ivory that I believed to be illegal in any fashion whats so ever. It is always possible that ivory that is used in making a knife handle could be construed as being illegal. The simple explanation for that is that the knife maker has the same problem getting any kind of certification as a private citizen relative to the age or when the ivory was imported into the USA. But there are always a small proportion of people who do illegal things for profit. That is human nature whether it be in Africa, China, or the USA. The potential fines and the risk of such far outweigh any kind of normal gain that might be achieved by the private citizen or knife maker here in the USA.

If a fine didn't far outweigh possible gain then it would be worth it to take the risk and just pay the fines, right?

 

[B34NS]

I agree with Adam that there is consumption of illegal Ivory here in the USA. "African Modern Elephant Ivory" And while china / Asia seems to be the bigger problem it doesn't mean that the illegal Ivory trade here doesn't need to be stop.

WE, The USA are the biggest consumers of most everything on the planet so I'm sure there is illegal ivory and Rhino horn being consumed, used here.

I think a multi pronged attack is needed on china and the USA. Since I can speak a word of Mandarin I try to help people like Yao Ming,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...na-campaign/2014/09/03/87ebbe2a-d3e1-4283-964

http://yaomingblog.com/elephants/

And one that I am involved with on a small scale.

http://wildaid.org/program/yao-ming-says-no-ivory-and-rhino-horn

So for the folks here that want to do some positive things to help save Elephants and Rhinos these are some avenues for you.

Possibly one of the few ways we will be able to end the trade is with pressure like this. Couldn't agree more that a multiprong approach is the best, in that bans never solve anything.

 

[22-rimfire]

The fines are HUGE. I can't imagine any gain from a knife handle justifying that kind of risk.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

The fines are HUGE. I can't imagine any gain from a knife handle justifying that kind of risk.

Right, that's the point. The fines make it completely not worth taking the risk and therefore deter people from doing the behavior attached to the fine.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I understand that, but something like this isn't an exact science, I do agree that it's a very small amount compared to the global market. My point was, it doesn't matter how much is coming in since anyone buying raw ivory in America at any real quantity, knows that it's illegal. Therefore a complete ban would have zero effect since they're already engaging in the sale and transfer of illegal ivory.

I'm not so Sure that the terminal user is always aware that it could be illegal. I'm going with what I know about other kinds of ivory here because elephant ivory just doesn't exist in high enough quantities as to give me enough experience to make an assertion.

But I see your point, and I think it may be a valid one.

 

[22-rimfire]

That's why speeding fines are often doubled in construction areas. Those people working need some protection and something to nudge a driver to reduce their speed. Only a person not paying attention or doesn't care would speed through a construction zone. Back to knives....

 

[Mark Knapp]

I was asked what I thought about if people who buy it know it is illegal, and so I shared that because the young knifemaker bought the ivory like any other handle material and had no clue if it was legal or not. He did not get any paperwork with the ivory.

That's why I shared it.

In an earlier post I tried t explain how people should buy ivory to make sure they are part of the solution not the problem.

In my "lecture" I was trying to let you and others know by what life experiences I find myself able to talk knowledgeably on the subject. If it sounds like a lecture, what's wrong with that. People learn a good bit of what they need to know from lectures.

It's possible that I know more about this stuff than you do.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I was asked what I thought about if people who buy it know it is illegal, and so I shared that because the young knifemaker bought the ivory like any other handle material and had no clue if it was legal or not. He did not get any paperwork with the ivory.

That's why I shared it.

PS, it is possible to buy bags of legal ivory scraps. That's where the music stores get them. It's true that at that point it is not possible to tell if any of that ivory in the drawer was legal. Where those people get caught is up the supply chain.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Possibly one of the few ways we will be able to end the trade is with pressure like this. Couldn't agree more that a multiprong approach is the best, in that bans never solve anything.

I agree with you, then why bother with a ban? The enforcement alone will be very expensive. That money would go a lot further if used to augment the security at the border and help guard elephants. IMHO

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Why would they bring it here though. When it sells for ten times as much in China. That sounds silly to me.

Mark,
Look before any of this Medical Pot BS. when I sold pot as a teenager It didn't matter that I could get twice as much for it in New York because I lived here in S. Cal.


If the smuggler has a distribution/sales network here in the USA and lives here in the USA. They would receive smuggled Ivory here, sell it here and possibly try to sell some of it headed to china.

Remember that we have a lot of people of chinese ancestry here.
Second only to china in amount would be my guess? Defiantly well heeled compared to other places around the world with chinese populations.

Also green Ivory can be chemically treated to look like old. You might be able to tell. I doubt most could. Paperwork can be duplicated and used to cover.

So the Poached/smuggling Ivory trade needs to be stamped out around the world and , yes, here in the USA.

 

[AVigil]

If it sounds like a lecture, what's wrong with that. People learn a good bit of what they need to know from lectures. It's possible that I know more about this stuff than you do.

Well because this is a discussion board and not your bully pulpit.

You may know more about this stuff then I do.... Big deal. It does not seem to make one bit a difference when it comes to the ban.

Mark...why have you not been able to convince those who orchestrated the ban with your knowledge on the matter?

 

[Mark Knapp]

Our F&W agents are very good, not much gets by them. I know this from personal experience.

On one occasion a customer bought three ancient walrus ivory handle sections from me. They weighed less than a pound altogether. They fit into a small USPS flat rate shipping box. The guy gave me a New York address but from something he said in his emails, it sounded like he was overseas. So I told him if the ivory was going overseas he would need a CITES permit. He assured me he was in the US. I shipped the box to his address and a few days later I got a call from a USF&W agent in New York. He told me the address I was given was a forwarding address, the guy lives in Turkey. If I had been complicit in it, if I had known the box was headed to Turkey, I would have been on the hook for it. The point is he got caught with a very small amount.

Most of us have a house in their neighborhood that everyone suspects might be dealing in illicit drugs. People report it, you know it's going on, but nothing happens. They go on for years that way.

It's not the same with people doing shady stuff with ivory. I'm talking walrus ivory here because, again, there's not enough elephant ivory around to base any assertions on. In all the years I have been dealing with ivory, I have suspected there were a couple of people pulling some unsavory things with it. In this case, selling fresh walrus ivory as pre-act ivory. They got caught within just a few weeks. They paid fines and went to jail.

Our fish and game guys are good, they are sneaky and they are committed, persistent, tenacious . They are scary. I say they should be.

I have a lot of confidence in them. You should too.

 

[22-rimfire]

Mark...why have you not been able to convince those who orchestrated the ban with your knowledge on the matter?

I would suspect that the US ban that is sought is mostly political versus practical.

I personally don't think we need any more riguorous bans here, just good enforcement action. The Fish & Wildlife service is very good at enforcement.

 

[AVigil]

Our F&W agents are very good, not much gets by them. I know this from personal experience

I am sure they do the best.

From their own website it states....."we believe a substantial amount of elephant ivory is illegally imported and enters the domestic market. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have clearly shown that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade."

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#11

 

[Mark Knapp]

Well because this is a discussion board and not your bully pulpit.

You may know more about this stuff then I do.... Big deal. It does not seem to make one bit a difference when it comes to the ban.

Mark...why have you not been able to convince those who orchestrated the ban with your knowledge on the matter?

This is a discussion board, people can give their opinions all day and what do you get, a bunch of opinions. That's fine if you are doing a poll on how people "feel".

If you come here to learn something, it's nice to have someone around that knows something about subject.

I have explained a couple of times why the ban is getting railroaded through without a basis in science. People here said I was just being political.

Here are the facts. Until late 2012 the USF&W website reflected what the ETIS reports say about illicit elephant ivory coming into the US. It said that there is not a problem of illicit ivory in the US.

Then came the "Clinton Initiative" it reported the problems of poaching in Africa and compelled President Obama to make some drastic changes in the way that the US treats ivory.

The President put together a committee to look into it. On the committee there were heads of the top animal protectionist groups, the person in charge in eBay that banned the sale of any material from any ivory bearing animal on eBay and a few others (I can get you the names if you want). There were no scientists at the table, no statisticians, no one from ETIS, no Africa experts, no ivory experts, and no-one from the ivory industry were invited to the table. They came back with a recommendation to ban the use of all kinds of ivory in the US.

The President wrote his strategy to combat the trafficking of illicit animal parts, if implemented as written it would ban the use of all ivory in the US, every kind.

Through a huge campaign, we were able to get it softened a little. The President wrote his executive order and Dan Ashe wrote his directives.

The American people never had a say. It never went through judicial scrutiny, it never went through the legislative process.

That's why I have not been able to convince those who orchestrated the ban. We were not invited to the table. From the tone of your last two posts to me you don't want to hear what I have to say either.

All these things can be checked, I did not make it up.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I am sure they do the best.

From their own website it states....."we believe a substantial amount of elephant ivory is illegally imported and enters the domestic market. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have clearly shown that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade."

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#11

We have gone around and around about what that says, I don't feel it would do any good to do it again.

But I ask you again, do you believe everything your government tells you?