Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

The "model letter" that Ritter wants me to send to my legislators says: Adding insult to injury, the ban goes against U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services' longstanding position that virtually all ivory in the U.S. was legally imported before elephants were listed as endangered species and its sale in the U.S. has no impact on poaching in Africa.

This position is simply not true, and there have been numerous links posted in this thread to prove it. USFW's position is that lots of blood ivory is coming into the US, that the tons of illegal ivory it has seized are just the tip of the iceberg and that the sale of legal ivory in the US gives smugglers the opportunity to exploit our extremely porous borders to increase the flow of blood ivory into the US.

Knife Rights has no reasonable alternative to the ban, other than Mark's assertion that we can simply guard the elephants. That position is completely unworkable for obvious reasons. To guard the elephants, we'd have to field a huge army to spread out across elephant country in Africa, and they'd have to be heavily armed, well-funded and be able to cover massive tracts of remote, rugged terrain to outwit or outmaneuver native poachers who know the land intimately. And they'd have to operate in large tracts of conflict zones.

The elephant protectors would also have to fend off the real armies of the African countries that themselves exploit elephant poaching to raise money.


How many trained, well-armed people would we need to protect all these elephants 24/7, including protecting the elephants' watering holes from being poisoned? How much would that cost? Who would pay? It's a completely absurd position.

The truth is that Knife Rights is not representing knife rights, but rather a few business people who make money selling ivory. Knife Rights doesn't just want to block a total ban on ivory, it wants to remove all bans from ivory of every kind.
 
The elephant protectors would also have to fend off the real armies of the African countries that themselves exploit elephant poaching to raise money.

How many trained, well-armed people would we need to protect all these elephants 24/7, including protecting the elephants' watering holes from being poisoned? How much would that cost? Who would pay? It's a completely absurd position.

If this is true, then the African elephant is doomed. There will be no changing that with a ban in the USA. The US is not going to declare war over elephants. They won't even declare war when Russia invaded the Ukraine, North Korea, or Iran nuclear development... Why? It is not in our self interest just like it is not in our self interest with elephants.
 
If this is true, then the African elephant is doomed. There will be no changing that with a ban in the USA. The US is not going to declare war over elephants. They won't even declare war when Russia invaded the Ukraine, North Korea, or Iran nuclear development... Why? It is not in our self interest just like it is not in our self interest with elephants.

Yup, better not try. Might get in the way of commerce.
 
...The "legal" sale of ivory is often used as a front for the sale of illegal ivory....

So why bother to distinguish between law abiding and criminal actors; just jail everyone and you will probably get most of the criminals. How simple ;)

n2s
 
If this is true, then the African elephant is doomed. There will be no changing that with a ban in the USA. The US is not going to declare war over elephants. They won't even declare war when Russia invaded the Ukraine, North Korea, or Iran nuclear development... Why? It is not in our self interest just like it is not in our self interest with elephants.


Well, it is true, and it does make saving elephants extremely difficult. And it may also be true that African elephants are doomed, but America should take the lead in trying to save them. Once we take a leadership role, it is easier to get other nations to join in the ban.

Even though I find Knife Rights' lobbying efforts to be unethical, I also think we should find a way to protect people who currently own valuable ivory products. I don't know that that protection would involve, but that's where Knife Rights should be investing its lobbying efforts. I would also support finding a way to allow fossil ivory, but that kind of protection would take a lot of money to invest in enforcement resources.

Knife Rights would be better served by being part of the solution, not a continuing part of the problem.
 
The "model letter" that Ritter wants me to send to my legislators says: Adding insult to injury, the ban goes against U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services' longstanding position that virtually all ivory in the U.S. was legally imported before elephants were listed as endangered species and its sale in the U.S. has no impact on poaching in Africa.

This position is simply not true, and there have been numerous links posted in this thread to prove it. USFW's position is that lots of blood ivory is coming into the US, that the tons of illegal ivory it has seized are just the tip of the iceberg and that the sale of legal ivory in the US gives smugglers the opportunity to exploit our extremely porous borders to increase the flow of blood ivory into the US.

Knife Rights has no reasonable alternative to the ban, other than Mark's assertion that we can simply guard the elephants. That position is completely unworkable for obvious reasons. To guard the elephants, we'd have to field a huge army to spread out across elephant country in Africa, and they'd have to be heavily armed, well-funded and be able to cover massive tracts of remote, rugged terrain to outwit or outmaneuver native poachers who know the land intimately. And they'd have to operate in large tracts of conflict zones.

The elephant protectors would also have to fend off the real armies of the African countries that themselves exploit elephant poaching to raise money.


How many trained, well-armed people would we need to protect all these elephants 24/7, including protecting the elephants' watering holes from being poisoned? How much would that cost? Who would pay? It's a completely absurd position.

The truth is that Knife Rights is not representing knife rights, but rather a few business people who make money selling ivory. Knife Rights doesn't just want to block a total ban on ivory, it wants to remove all bans from ivory of every kind.


If my word means anything, the information available on the F&WS website is recent. I know because I read over most of the site back when I was reading the other thread I posted from Custom & Handmade forum.

The website did in fact use to say how insignificant we were in black market ivory. Also of interest it listed nationality of the people commiting the ofences. None of which I see now.

To protect the elephants you do not provide a VIP protection force for each elephant that is as you mentioned ludicrous. You target poachers and the major shipping points to completely stop the flow.
 
If my word means anything, the information available on the F&WS website is recent. I know because I read over most of the site back when I was reading the other thread I posted from Custom & Handmade forum.

The website did in fact use to say how insignificant we were in black market ivory. Also of interest it listed nationality of the people commiting the ofences. None of which I see now.

To protect the elephants you do not provide a VIP protection force for each elephant that is as you mentioned ludicrous. You target poachers and the major shipping points to completely stop the flow.


USFW says the current limited ban provides cover for illegal ivory coming into the US and that the tons of seized blood ivory in the US are just a small percentage of what is being smuggled into this country. That link has been posted many times.

I don't know what the website used to say, but I'll take your word for it.

Protecting elephants, which is Mark's idea, is just unworkable. Poachers are impossible to track with any consistency. Major shipping points from Africa are notoriously easy for smugglers. If you look at the CITES documents, China is listed as a responsible buyer of African ivory. There is so much corruption in China and Africa and other places, that it's difficult to see what kind of solution is workable.

A total ban does have victims, but so does a weak ban. I guess it comes down to what people value most, elephants or stuff made from ivory.
 
Illegal ivory still making the news.

"Illegal ivory for sale in California has doubled in 8 years, study says"

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ivory-ban-20150113-story.html


"California Considers Strict Ivory Ban To Protect Elephants"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/california-ivory-ban_n_6446412.html

"Illegal sales are especially pervasive in California, where San Francisco and Los Angeles trail only New York City in ivory imports, according to a Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) study carried out last spring. Even more troubling, up to 90 percent of ivory for sale in Los Angeles and approximately 80 percent being sold in San Francisco is likely illegal, the NDRC found. Much of that ivory is being paraded as antique, but it is not"


While looking for information on Ivory one thing is apparent. There are not many resources claiming illegal ivory smuggling is not a problem in the USA. I am only hearing that by those who want to sell ivory.
 
The poachers are not impossible to track. If you read the link for the C4ads study, those locations and the "poachers" are military targets or could be.

Back to the topic. To save the elephants no Americans need lose the value of their property, nor face prosecution/ restriction. We aren't bad people by and large I believe.

I'm pretty sure that is why Knife Rights takes up the issue. It has nothing to do with a conspiring knife industry working to maintain the exploitation of elephants for their ivory.
 
The poachers are not impossible to track. If you read the link for the C4ads study, those locations and the "poachers" are military targets or could be.

Back to the topic. To save the elephants no Americans need lose the value of their property, nor face prosecution/ restriction. We aren't bad people by and large I believe.

I'm pretty sure that is why Knife Rights takes up the issue. It has nothing to do with a conspiring knife industry working to maintain the exploitation of elephants for their ivory.

They have full value of their property RIGHT NOW. If the ivory is valued for its market cost - sell it. If it is valued for something else, decide that you are taking it permanently out of the market and keep it.

People speculate all the time on art, natural resources and technology that sometimes drastically loses value in the future - and they don't even get a warning. Here's a fantastic grace period for Americans who want ivory to buy it from Americans who want to cash in on its value when it will never be higher.

What a deal!
 
They have full value of their property RIGHT NOW. If the ivory is valued for its market cost - sell it. If it is valued for something else, decide that you are taking it permanently out of the market and keep it.

People speculate all the time on art, natural resources and technology that sometimes drastically loses value in the future - and they don't even get a warning. Here's a fantastic grace period for Americans who want ivory to buy it from Americans who want to cash in on its value when it will never be higher.

What a deal!

What you fail to realize, is the fact that not everybody buys these "trinkets" as an investment.
Yes, people buy art, natural resources and such that drastically loses value, but the government doesn't make it illegal to own, or sell, either.
That is what they are doing with all ivory.
 
What you fail to realize, is the fact that not everybody buys these "trinkets" as an investment.
Yes, people buy art, natural resources and such that drastically loses value, but the government doesn't make it illegal to own, or sell, either.
That is what they are doing with all ivory.

No, they are making it illegal to SELL, not own. So when you buy your trinket, you get to keep it.

And the situation could be positively compared to investing in asbestos - you put your money in, and then you lose both the money, the material, have to pay for cleanup, and maybe a lawsuit later.
 
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It's time to move past ivory. I support all bans. Get this garbage out of my country. Let everyone know that we have better things to do than obsess over a resource that causes poaching.
 
If a person can't legally sell it, then a person can't legally buy it, making it illegal to own by proxy.
 
You own your kidneys, but you can't sell them. Are they illegal?

You didn't purchase your kidneys either, so that's not a good comparison.

Technically, no - ivory won't be illegal to own, you just can't buy, sell or most likely, transport it across state lines. The ban just makes personal property valueless.
 
Does anyone really believe that a national ban will save the African elephants from extinction? Does anyone believe a national ban will slow poaching in Africa at all?
 
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