Anti-Ivory Groups Take Aim at WA, IA & CA (Mammoth Included) + Fed Update

I have not attacked the character or integrity of any one on here, I would appreciate it if I was given the same courtesy.

If you can't make your point without attacking me personally maybe you don't have a point.
 
Mark,
Yes, I'm sure we would be fine friends. I happen to live to discuss different topics with people with different idea and beliefs than mine.

So just for S & G's, let's say we are the number 3 or 4th in line in consumption of illegal Poached Ivory. Isn't that still a heck of a lot of poached Elephant Ivory ending up here in the USA?

You seem to say that someone had been arrested for Ancient Ivory? When and where did this happen?

Thanks.
Laurence
 
Mark Knapp said:
It's a simple question do you believe everything your government tells you? Did you ask them to tell you where they got their information? You asked me to show you. I have defended my argument with some pretty good research IMO.

I asked them? We are asking them, they have not been able to tell us.
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Oh please...

I believe the NSFW in this matter.

Point in fact it is your argument is not good enough to have any effect on the ban, and you take your ignorance on smuggling as if it is a fact.
 
Mark, the US is #2 market for ivory in the world. It is documented all over the place. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. By advocating for loopholes for "pre ban", mammoth, ivory from legal hunts, etc you not make it easier for the illegal ivory industry to operate in the US. You keep on trying to obfuscate this. You, Mark, support the slaughter of elephants. Every legitimate organization (without ties to the global ivory industry) that is working to protect elephants advocates a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory. You, a man who makes his living selling ivory products, claims they are wrong...
 
ncrockclimb said:
The sale of "legal" ivory supports the illegal ivory industry and the slaughter of elephants. That is a fact that you continue to ignore. Numerous sources have been cited that support this fact and you have yet to disprove a single one. Calling those that support the slaughter of elephants "innocent" is inaccurate. Anyone who sells ivory is culpable for the slaughter of elephants.
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Your first sentence is an opinion that you share with other people here. It is not a fact, for it to be a fact, you need to provide supporting evidence that it is true. Show me the evidence, in the way of credible research.
No-one has done that but you can now if you want to.
 
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As I said before in the last 30 years I have handled over 30 tons of mammoth and none of it could be mistaken for elephant. I have never met any one in person who associated the use of mammoth to the demise of elephants. I have talked about ivory on this forum for 14 years and only in the last year heard of opposition to its use.
I applaud Mark I am not as articulate as him. He has done a very good job
expressing the views of the makers and collectors on this site who appreciate mammoth.
Before any legislation or executive orders are passed lets have a independent study on its effectiveness and long term impacts.
 
How many articles and quotes from experts will it take? It had been posted again and again. Each time, you discount the source based on your expertise as someone who buy and sells ivory. No facts, just your opinion, and we are supposed to believe you over all the legitimate sources that claim and offer evidence to the contrary.

There is a connection between the domestic "legal" ivory trade and the global illegal ivory trade. It is documented. With that in mind, your support of the continued sale of "legal" ivory makes you indirectly responsible for the slaughter of elephants. I wish that was not so, but it is.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark,
Yes, I'm sure we would be fine friends. I happen to live to discuss different topics with people with different idea and beliefs than mine.

So just for S & G's, let's say we are the number 3 or 4th in line in consumption of illegal Poached Ivory. Isn't that still a heck of a lot of poached Elephant Ivory ending up here in the USA?

You seem to say that someone had been arrested for Ancient Ivory? When and where did this happen?

Thanks.
Laurence
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The evidence in the three reports I have sited demonstrate that we are way on the bottom of the list in 98 countries studied.

A 72 year old woman was arrested in New York for selling a mammoth ivory necklace at an antique show. It is now illegal to sell mammoth ivory in New York. She lives in NC and had been going to the New York show every year. Was not aware of the law change last year. She was asking $40.00 for the necklace and was fined something like $2500.00. There was another guy guy with "teethers" from the 18th century that was arrested and charged. I will find the accounts for these if you like, might take me a bit to do it.
 
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ncrockclimb said:
Mark, the US is #2 market for ivory in the world. It is documented all over the place. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. By advocating for loopholes for "pre ban", mammoth, ivory from legal hunts, etc you not make it easier for the illegal ivory industry to operate in the US. You keep on trying to obfuscate this. You, Mark, support the slaughter of elephants. Every legitimate organization (without ties to the global ivory industry) that is working to protect elephants advocates a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory. You, a man who makes his living selling ivory products, claims they are wrong...
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I am not disputing that we are number two in sales of ivory. No one in the studies has made the leap and assumed like you did that it is all illegal. You can't make that leap.
 
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AVigil said:
Oh please...

I believe the NSFW in this matter.

Point in fact it is your argument is not good enough to have any effect on the ban, and you take your ignorance on smuggling as if it is a fact.
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Why do you think you are more learned in smuggling than I am?
 
Let's go back to the germane points.

The greatest threat to elephants is poaching to supply the global trade in ivory.

The US is the #2 market for the trade in ivory. (I won't say illegal this time)

It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. By advocating for loopholes for "pre ban", mammoth, ivory from legal hunts, etc, you make it easier for the illegal ivory industry to operate.

By eradicating the second largest market for ivory in the world (the US) you WILL NOT increase demand. Rather you will decrease demand and increase the cost for the illegal ivory trade to do business.

Every major group (without a financial interest in the ivory trade) dedicated to protecting the elephants supports a total ban on ivory sales.

You do not. You currently make your living selling ivory, and want to continue to do so.

edit to fix typo in line #2.
 
marcinek said:
Just their knowledge of the subject and their opinions on it.

I'm done.
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I have not attacked anyone's opinions on anything, too many people here are confusing opinion with fact. If you cannot demonstrate your position with credible scientific research it is an opinion and not a fact.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but unless you can demonstrate it's validity with credible scientific research it can't viewed more valid than anyone else' opinion.

I have tried to substantiate my views with scientific facts, others here have not, they just keep repeating other opinions and out right untrue statements.
 
Mark Knapp said:
I have not attacked the character or integrity of any one on here, I would appreciate it if I was given the same courtesy.

If you can't make your point without attacking me personally maybe you don't have a point.
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Well, you weren't exactly polite to me when you were all confused about who you were talking to.
 
A mod should probably close this one up.
It is getting a much meaner tone than most threads here, and has rather lost the "watching a car wreck" fun it had going for a bit.

It's getting sad. :(
 
ncrockclimb said:
How many articles and quotes from experts will it take? It had been posted again and again. Each time, you discount the source based on your expertise as someone who buy and sells ivory. No facts, just your opinion, and we are supposed to believe you over all the legitimate sources that claim and offer evidence to the contrary.

There is a connection between the domestic "legal" ivory trade and the global illegal ivory trade. It is documented. With that in mind, your support of the continued sale of "legal" ivory makes you indirectly responsible for the slaughter of elephants. I wish that was not so, but it is.
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I have made it as clear to you as I possibly can, there is nothing to be gained by continuing on with you.
 
RX-79G said:
Well, you weren't exactly polite to me when you were all confused about who you were talking to.
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Please. Mark has been polite. I find his position to be utterly abhorrent, but he has been a gentleman in this thread.
 
RX-79G said:
Well, you weren't exactly polite to me when you were all confused about who you were talking to.
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I wasn't treating you as badly as I have been treated throughout this whole thread. And I apologized, I apologize again. I used smiley emojis to let you know what I was saying was meant to be taken lightly, not badly.
 
ncrockclimb said:
Please. Mark has been polite. I find his position to be utterly abhorrent, but he has been a gentleman in this thread.
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I didn't find his accusations about me "dancing around the question" polite when he has STILL failed to answer the question I asked him 3 times.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Why do you think you are more learned in smuggling than I am?
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Me...oh no.

You obviously are a character of suspicion due to the frequent attempts of undercover agents to get you to buy illegal items.

You probably know more about smuggling then you are letting on. But you are not admitting it is a problem and a big reason for the ban.

but of course the US Fish and Wild Life says... " we believe a substantial amount of elephant ivory is illegally imported and enters the domestic market.It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have clearly shown that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade."
 
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