Antibiotics

2dogs said:
...Is there any danger in with ... betadine?...
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Take a look at some of those other links. There was a long and drawn out discussion with regards to iodine/betadine in full strength, dilute, and just water purification concentrations. It was a less then pretty display all around. However, I think you will find some specific perspectives on the topic.
Immodium.com said:
When can I self-medicate?
When a doctor's care is not required, you can relieve the symptoms of diarrhea by using Imodium® A-D.

When should I consult a physician?
If diarrhea persists beyond 2 days
If accompanied by fever over 101°F
If accompanied by blood/mucus in the stool
If you suffer from abdominal pain, bloating, and constipation
Regarding any additional medications that may be appropriate
If the sufferer is a child under 6 years of age...
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Infectious diarrhea is a physiologic mechanism...it does get a little complicated when you talk about mucosal sloughing etc... If you keep up with hydration, most infectious diarrheas are self limited as the causative infectious organism is usually flushed out by the diarhea. The problem is that medications like immodium decrease bowel motility in order to aid in fluid absorption. In some cases, the decrease in motility in the face of certain infectious processes or obstructive processes can result in worsening condition, sepsis, peritonitis, etc....

Immodium is a decent enough medication. However, I again say, no free lunch. OTC meds are not without their risks.
 
Ok lizard I have read maybe 200 posts. I don't want to retype my question in detail. The condensed version: can I overuse topical antibiotics like betadine, polysporin etc? And lizard no offense, but I don't want other forumites perspectives. If you can I want a no BS blunt answer that a dummy like me can understand. I don't take hints. Hit me in the head with a shovel if you have to. Thanks.
 
As for topical antibiotics, I generally have not heard of an "overdose" type issue. You should take a look at the paperwork with the med. It will provide you with some guidelines and recommendations. Individuals can and do have reactions allergic and otherwise to these agents. That (potential risk) should not prevent you from using it...unless you are allergic to it or had poor reaction in the past (actual/real risk).

2dogs said:
...can I overuse topical antibiotics like betadine, polysporin etc?...
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Iodine/betadine is NOT an antibiotic. I do not want to turn this thread into another battle on the matter. I am sorry if you are not interested in reading my previous writings on this topic in the other threads. If you change your mind, you can start with reply #31 at link http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242081&page=2

In general, it is not a bad idea to find what has already been discussed or stated on a matter.
 
LSkylizard said:
Almost anyone can find a book or article that tells them something that they think is cool and reasonable.
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The same goes for a teacher, it isn't as if medical doctors in general are this 100% cohesive group who always agree. I have asked actual doctors about statements you have made here and you were very strong in your arguement with no possibly for debate and to the extent you even derided those that disagreed with you, however I have heard opposing viewpoints with lots of studies to back them up and of course their own medical degrees. I posted about this awhile ago in regards to betadine on wounds specifically.

Just accepting what a doctor says because he is a doctor is just as foolish as accepting something blindly because you read it in a book which is where doctors get most of their information of course as with engineers, scientists, laywers, and any one else that goes to school etc. . Very few people also tend to challenge what is presented to them and just accept whatever they are told in such a teacher/student relationship so the course is usually just 100% reflective of the teachers viewpoint. Most people in that position do not want to be challenged and get very defensive when they are, the good ones don't of course, they can learn just like the students.

Doctors don't all agree, even on fundamentals, doctors can push drugs for money, some of them are very aggressive surgery wise and some are not. Fundamentally because they all don't agree it makes the arguement obvious that you have to be able to evaluate their information. In reality many times there is no way to make a real decision because studies can often be found which can support either viewpoint and you can bring out "experts" on both sides which can argue either perspective. You either have to do a coin flip, do the research yourself and make an intelligent decision. The problem is that you don't have the time to do this for everything, the best you can usually do is ask a bunch of doctors (or laywers/engineers) and weigh their viewpoints because they all won't agree.

What a lot of people do is continue to ask until they find someone who says what they want to hear and suddenly that guy is the obvious "real" expert. If you are actually interested in finding an unbiased expert opinion it is rather trivial to do, all you have to do is tell the guy he is wrong and watch what happens, don't hint at it or be mild either, just flat out call them on something. If his perspective is based on facts and logic and he is confident then he will not mind being challenged and in fact will welcome it because there is always the possibility he is wrong and discovering this this is more important than being right. However if the perspective isn't based on facts and logic, then they will refuse to provide any support for the arguement (because there isn't one) and instead get defensive or offensive and it is obvious that they don't like being challenged at all (no confidence in their arguement).

In regards to anti-biotics, I never carry them, have never used them in a long time (I think I had to take them once for gum problem) never had a serious infection so it would be similar to carrying a snake bite kit very low probability it would be useful. There are lots of non-drug ways to treat infected wounds, locally sunlight soap poultices were used to draw infection from bad wounds (as in full of pus). Honey/sugar packs are promoted by some to cure wounds even which anti-biotics fail to treat. Internal and serious infections would be a bad thing in a survival situation, what is the survival rate for those even in a full hospital. I'd would probably self-medicate if available in those situations in a dire situation but would not count on it being productive especially considering the massive amount of antiobiotics available and how specific they can be and the fact that I have never taken any of them so could be allergic.

-Cliff
 
LSkylizard said:
Immodium is a decent enough medication. However, I again say, no free lunch. OTC meds are not without their risks.....

[and later he says]

I am sorry if you are not interested in reading my previous writings on this topic in the other threads. If you change your mind, you can start with reply #31 at link http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...=242081&page=2

In general, it is not a bad idea to find what has already been discussed or stated on a matter.

[and earlier he said]

2. Without proper training, you lack the foundation of knowledge & experience to understand or even recognize the misinformation, errors, and dangers.

[and even earlier he said]

My goal is to hopefully prevent someone lacking proper training or education from reading this thread and being inappropriately led down the wrong path.
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The focus of this topic was (I think) originally geared toward those admittedly rare instances when the doctor isn't available, and professional medical treatment isn't available for a variety of reasons. As a medical professional, LSkylizard Sir, what is your recommendation for people faced with severe or advancing infections when someone of your knowledge, judgement and training isn't available?
 
Rainmaker870 said:
....what is your recommendation for people faced with severe or advancing infections when someone of your knowledge, judgement and training isn't available?
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I am not sure of what point you are trying to make with those quoted prior posts of mine....doesn't matter. I posted links in the event someoen was interested in my answers on similar or repeat questions. I am not inclined to rewrite and restart the debate if it has already been discussed.

I have stated previously that there are times when you can not treat something in the wilderness. That is just the way it is. A rapidly progressing infection would generally require some kind of debridement and systemic antibiotics...generally of the intravenous type. If an abscess is present, it would generally need to be opened. There are simply some things I can not teach you in a web forum. I know some believe a "teacher" would be willing to "discuss" anything. However, I can not teach you what wounds require debridement. I can not teach you how to debride properly in this forum. The truth is that wound infection and hemorrhage have been problems in battlefields. The lack of required advanced care was the problem that just was not correctable. The best you can do (if you lack "knowledge, judgement and training") is basic wound care, patient stabilize, and evacuation. With rapidly progressive wound infections, the patient dies without advanced health care and high dose antibiotics. Some of these patients receive hyperbaric oxygen treatment too. A good number of the "flesh eating" bacteria victims have gone into complete failure within a few hours...even after entering the hospital!!! Again, they would not have been saved by a random selection of a handful of antibiotics in the woods.
 
I wasn't really trying to make a point. I was just bringing your repeated emphasis on the need for knowledge, experience and training back to the surface. And, well, yeah... I think you have a bit of a God complex, but I also think the information you choose to share adds significantly to the discussion. :)

I think everyone can agree that doctors diagnose and treat better than laymen. I guess we're just destined to disagree about how to proceed when none of the civilized resources are available to us: Personally, I'll try anything as an alternative to death. You seem to advocate in the other direction, that of lying down and waiting for it to take us because we won't know what we're doing. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but I think that's the default result of your position.

I think it's a difference in philosophy. My philosophy calls for me to have a decent layman's library of emergency medical information on hand, along with a smattering of supplies that might help in a life and death situation. You're opposed to that. (I don't understand why, of course, but I do accept that you're opposed to it.)
 
Lizard thanks for taking your time to answer my questions. I think I have read every thread on the subject word for word now. Actually what you've taught me makes wound care easier. Irrigate, manage bleeding, don't worry about closing, see an Md ASAP. No chemicals in the wound. OK?

One last question, for now. If salt is available shoud a certain quantity be added to the irrigation water?

Thanks again! Bill
 
2dogs said:
....Irrigate, manage bleeding, don't worry about closing, see an Md ASAP. No chemicals in the wound...
If salt is available should a certain quantity be added to the irrigation water?...
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That is a reasonable general approach as you have summed it up in your post. It doesn't need to be more complicated in the woods...more complexity often leads to problems...you likely do not have the resources in the wild to deal with treatment complications. You may and can get complicated wounds/injuries/etc in the wilderness... However, if you have limited resouces, you will achieve more by applying simple appropriate aid to bridge the gap as opposed to trying to stretch simple resources to create some wilderness equivalent of what can be achieved in a medical center. Sometimes, "less is more" don't try to get fancy.
As for normal saline, just use water. Don't try to make normal saline. You will likely have better use for the salt from a dietary standpoint then trying to mix up normal saline for irrigation.
Rainmaker870 said:
....your repeated emphasis on the need for knowledge, experience and training back to the surface.... I think you have a bit of a God complex...
...You seem to advocate in the other direction, that of lying down and waiting for it to take us because we won't know what we're doing...
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um....OK, I do not think I have said complex, nor do I think I advocate lying down and just dying (though sometime you can't avoid death) but you are free to interpret as you choose.

In any event, I think there has been quite a bit of discourse on this matter and I hope some knowledge has been gained all around.:p
 
870 I don't mean to speak for lizard but just having a smattering of supplies doesn't mean squat. He has just told us the answers to our questions regarding wound care and antibiotics/antiseptics. If you don't like the answers then TS. You just spoke to an experienced trauma surgeon regarding his field of expertise and you still want to argue. You're gonna do whatever the heck you want to do, right? That's fine. But please quit asking the man the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

I was a firefighter/EMT for 18 years and I have some personal thoughts on splinting and the like but I defer to the doc regarding microbiology. Hell, I don't even know if that is the correct word to use here. I learned alot from this discussion and I thank everyone who jumped in including you 870. Now it is time to digest what has been presented here.
 
2dogs said:
870 I don't mean to speak for lizard but just having a smattering of supplies doesn't mean squat. He has just told us the answers to our questions regarding wound care and antibiotics/antiseptics. If you don't like the answers then TS. You just spoke to an experienced trauma surgeon and former SF medic regarding his field of expertise and you still want to argue. You're gonna do whatever the heck you want to do, right? That's fine. But please quit asking the man the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

.
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Be aware there are other opinions supported by published, proven and public medical professional people on all these subjects. At the end of the day you can say anything you want and claim you are anything you want to be on the internet.;)

Its buyer beware as per usual and a grain of salt must be taken of EVERYTHING typed on a forum.

Until I live next door to a combat surgeon and SF medic I will take care of my own needs thanks.

The buck stops with you nobody else.

Skam
 
2dogs said:
870 I don't mean to speak for lizard but just having a smattering of supplies doesn't mean squat. He has just told us the answers to our questions regarding wound care and antibiotics/antiseptics. If you don't like the answers then TS. You just spoke to an experienced trauma surgeon and former SF medic regarding his field of expertise and you still want to argue. You're gonna do whatever the heck you want to do, right? That's fine. But please quit asking the man the same question over and over expecting a different answer.

I was a firefighter/EMT for 18 years and I have some personal thoughts on splinting and the like but I defer to the doc regarding microbiology. Hell, I don't even know if that is the correct word to use here. I learned alot from this discussion and I thank everyone who jumped in including you 870. Now it is time to digest what has been presented here.
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I do not acknowledge your right to tell me what to do, 2dogs, but your opinion is noted. :)
 
LSkylizard said:
In any event, I think there has been quite a bit of discourse on this matter and I hope some knowledge has been gained all around.:p
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Yup - and I thank you for your participation. I learned from it, even though I don't agree with all of it. ;)
 
Who is current on their tetanus vaccinations?

If you are worried about infections in Katrina-like scenarios, that might be a good place to start.

Scott
 
beezaur said:
tetanus vaccinations... that might be a good place to start...
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Yep, vaccinations are a great place to start. Not 100% effective and not without some risks but a very good place to start. I know, given my Latin American travel obligations, I have taken the oral cholera vaccination series on three seperate occassions and received other exotics too...including rabies vaccination.

Just to clear any confusion... I am in the Medical Corps but am not SF.
 
870 let's shake on it. OK?

If you're in my neck of the woods and get hurt you can bet I'll do every thing I can to help you.
 
I've followed this thread with interest.

Um, what about "naturally occurring" penicillin...? Moldy bread looks terrible, smells terrible, and probably tastes terrible, but, does it have any efficacy as an anti-biotic, in it's unrefined form? Would eating a loaf of moldy bread fight an infection, if we have the knowledge necessary to properly diagnose our ailment...?

GeoThorn
 
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