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Any downsides to ZDP 189?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Artfully Martial, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. Artfully Martial

    Artfully Martial

    Jun 8, 2005
    I really don't care about steel that much once it meets a certain requirement, but I'm about to buy a paramilitary and Spyderco is redoing their lineup in ZDP. Is there someway to rationalize the S30V (outside of cost) or should I just wait for a ZDP para (assuming it'll ever come at all).
  2. robertmegar


    May 3, 2005
    zdp-189 = hard = brittle
  3. Esav Benyamin

    Esav Benyamin MidniteSuperMod Staff Member Super Mod

    Apr 6, 2000
    Any downside to S30V? Or VG-10? Or any good stainless steel, properly treated and ground?

    ZDP-189 is just the latest in a long list of high-tech stainless steels, each bringing certain characteristics to the mix, which are good for some uses and not for others.

    There is no one perfect blade material. The Paramilitary is fine in its current configuration. Depending on how long it remains in the Spyderco line-up, it may be released in other steels in years to come.

    Get what you like when you like it. Waiting for upgrades or price drops is a sure way to miss out on the fun now. :D
  4. Ryan8


    May 9, 2005
    Speaking of ZDP-189, if you want to see some really major hype go here.

    "It does three times what VG will do"

    Perhaps the most meaningless statement ever. Nonetheless it's a really interesting read.

    I haven't seen any down side to it yet. It can be hardened really high but that doesn't automatically make it brittle just because other steels may be at that hardness. Time will really tell.
  5. robertmegar


    May 3, 2005
    It IS brittle. That's why usually it gets laminated with other steels.
  6. Ryan8


    May 9, 2005
    I'm completely lacking in information about it's actual performance, other than edge retention and my totally non-scientific experience. Do you have any good sources of info?
  7. Halfneck

    Halfneck Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    William Henry blade was far from brittle. Reason for the laminate was that the blades could be stamped.
  8. Slim to None

    Slim to None

    Nov 11, 2004
    brittle according to whom? have you seen some scientific testing to support that? charpy notch tests etc?
  9. Carlos


    Jul 9, 2000
    Laminated blades can be stamped. Solid blades need to be laser cut, at much increased manufacturing cost. Solid ZDP Delicas will be arriving in 01/06 (est.).
  10. howiesatwork

    howiesatwork Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Jun 16, 2004
    We cannot get the info for heat-treating it, and can't buy it in bar or sheet form, so we cannot utilize it in the US market, except as a finished product from Japan.
    That's what it looks like to me...ICBW,BIPN.
  11. robertmegar


    May 3, 2005
    Heat treat info available.

    To me. (and Hitachi)
    and, yes.
  12. Habeas Corpus

    Habeas Corpus

    Mar 26, 2005
    Steel may get laminated for quite a number of reasons. Brittleness of the core is only *one* of the various other possibilities. Tradition, for instance, may be an important factor, like in Norway. Some Norwegian knifemakers also believe laminated steels are tougher in low temperatures. Laminated steel may also be used when the core doesn't have very high corrosion resistance, and so on.

    As far as ZDP-189 is concerned, the reports so far on the various discussion boards indicate that it's no more brittle than other high alloy stainless steels.

    Automatically equating high hardness (> 60 RC) with brittleness is a bit off the mark. There are quite a few "old-fashioned" carbon steels around that are anything but brittle even when they're run to full hardness.

  13. Slvgx


    Oct 11, 2004
    I doubt the PMillie will be made in ZDP-189. The Paramilitary is a Golden made piece, which means it uses American steels like s30v. ZDP-189 is a Japanese steel, and at this time it is not allowed to be exported.

    Also, Spyderco redoing their lineup in ZDP-189? Only two models are slated to be in ZDP-189 at this point, I hardly would qualify that as redoing the lineup. Sal said he wanted to put two ZDP-189 blades out there at a rather low price in order to gauge the reaction to the steel. Right now we are still in the "test" phase I'd say.
  14. WYK


    Jan 11, 2005

    A good source for the info is the fact that it is 3% Carbon(hard) and 20% Chromium(hard). VS two steels reknown for their toughness(non-brittle) - 5160 and L6 which have only .60 -.70% Carbon and usually less than .8% Chromium. 440C, which isn't terribly tough at all and is nearly useless at an RC of 60(chips readily and is a complete pain to sharpen), is 17% Chromium and 1% Carbon. Physics is physics. In fact, if you look at all the steels famous for toughness, none have more than 7.5% chromium, with most at about 0-1%. Even CPM-3V is only .8% Carbon.

    Hitachi, btw, did not answer the question regarding Charpy values in the cited example by Ryan8:

    "What do the numbers 189
    represent? Glesser said he does
    not know. Chances are that few do.
    He said that when he asked about
    ZDP’s charpy value—a measure
    of the dynamic toughness of a
    steel—the folks at Hitachi “acted
    like they didn’t know what I was
    talking about. We couldn’t get a
    good translation.”"

  15. Artfully Martial

    Artfully Martial

    Jun 8, 2005
    I'm going to be upset if they re release the Para in ZDP a few months down the road.
  16. robertmegar


    May 3, 2005
    From Hitachi itself, a comparison of Charpy values with 440C and ATS:


    Hope this clears up some of the qualities of this metal. ;)
  17. Habeas Corpus

    Habeas Corpus

    Mar 26, 2005
    That's very interesting. Is there also any information on the charpy values at ~64HRC? As far as I know the Spydercos are between 63 and 64HRC, and it would be interesting to know whether that makes any difference.

  18. Temper


    Oct 30, 2002

    Guys if you are interested I have found a place here that sells it as stock for knife makers.
  19. Artfully Martial

    Artfully Martial

    Jun 8, 2005
    What does the graph mean?
  20. db


    Oct 3, 1998
    WYK are you saying that Sal used a steel without knowing everything reasonable about it in his knives he is selling? Kind of hard for me to beleive.

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