Any hunters out there? Or makers for hunters?

[ERIK KNIVES]

I spent the last week in Canada with my relatives for a memorial service. My cousins are big hunters and I heard the same complaint from two of them through different conversations - they have to sharpen their knife 3 times while skinning a moose.

I have only worked stainless - 440C to finished knives and I am currently working M390 and have some Elmax to try next.

My first question is what steel would be a good choice for a moose skinner and can I help them get some better results?

They also talked about breaking several knives banging on them with a hammer trying to get through the breast plate when they had no axe. That led to the topic of Bear Grylls banging on his survival knife with a rock and not breaking it. What steel do you folks like for that kind of abuse?

Thanks for any insight.

Erik

 

[J. Doyle]

They also talked about breaking several knives banging on them with a hammer trying to get through the breast plate when they had no axe. That led to the topic of Bear Grylls banging on his survival knife with a rock and not breaking it. What steel do you folks like for that kind of abuse?

Thanks for any insight.

Erik

First, IF I was going to do this with my knife, (I have a time or two) I'd use a wood baton, i.e. part of a heavy stick, branch or log. Not a hammer or a rock. (BTW, they had a hammer but not an axe? )

I like carbon steels for my hunters. Some of the carbon steels like 1080, 1084, 5160 are quite tough and impact resistant. There are others. Yeah, they stain with blood and require some maintenance but what doesn't. You have to maintain your gun so a knife is a piece of cake.

Carbon steels when properly heat treated will hold an edge a good long time but are also fairly easy to sharpen.

Just my two cents.

 

[ddm6685]

I have been very happy with carbon five , skin several deer at one time and the edge holds up fine , just touch up with a steel or a fine diamond hone. VG10 works equally as well.

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

Thanks for the advice John. I send my stainless out so I will search the forum for how to HT the carbon steels. Anyone else think they have a steel that will skin a moose without having to stop and sharpen?

Erik

 

[Alberta Ed]

Moose hair, or most big game for that matter, will dull any edge -- it's invariably gritty, and if you try to saw through the stuff it'll take the edge off diamond (clue: slide the knife under the hide, edge up). As for breaking knives trying to hammer through the breast plate, use a saw, a chainsaw, an ax, or cut along the side. Or get some good knives.

 

[Remyrw]

Knives aren't axes, no matter how you slice it. I'll second not using a stone or metal object to baton a knife into something. The wood doesn't just provide the impact but protects the knife from excess shock by absorbing anything past a certain point. You can still damage a knife, but it's a LOT harder to do when using a chunk of wood to hammer with. If I had to pick a steel for that kind of abuse though, 1065 1/4" thick at the spine with a skandi grind and a nice wide angle on the final edge. Won't slice for squat, but if you need a knife to act like an axe you might as well design it like one.

+1 for not trying to cut the hair as well, it's like cutting hemp rope or cardboard. They'll take an edge off a knife like no one's business.

For blade steels, lean toward wear resist over pure toughness as long as you don't start using it as an axe replacement. The other trick is to not let it get dull. Work a bit and then give it a few swipes on a field sharpener or with a sharpening stick. If it never gets dull it never needs much to return to razor sharp so you aren't stuck mid job with a dull blade. I'd be inclined more toward a stainless for ease of upkeep, but something like CPM D2 would be tempting if I was making something or having it made.

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

Thanks dd, thanks AE,

DD, if you like the VG10, then based on what I have read you would approve of the M390.

AE,

Thanks for the insight on big game. I expect that you are right and those animals are hard on every edge. I'll tell my cousins to cut edge up if they will listen. As to "get some good knives" that's what I am trying to do for them!

Best regards,

Erik

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

Knives aren't axes, no matter how you slice it. I'll second not using a stone or metal object to baton a knife into something. The wood doesn't just provide the impact but protects the knife from excess shock by absorbing anything past a certain point. You can still damage a knife, but it's a LOT harder to do when using a chunk of wood to hammer with. If I had to pick a steel for that kind of abuse though, 1065 1/4" thick at the spine with a skandi grind and a nice wide angle on the final edge. Won't slice for squat, but if you need a knife to act like an axe you might as well design it like one.

+1 for not trying to cut the hair as well, it's like cutting hemp rope or cardboard. They'll take an edge off a knife like no one's business.

For blade steels, lean toward wear resist over pure toughness as long as you don't start using it as an axe replacement. The other trick is to not let it get dull. Work a bit and then give it a few swipes on a field sharpener or with a sharpening stick. If it never gets dull it never needs much to return to razor sharp so you aren't stuck mid job with a dull blade. I'd be inclined more toward a stainless for ease of upkeep, but something like CPM D2 would be tempting if I was making something or having it made.

Thank you Rem,

What an informative post! I may have to make those cousins of mine a kit - skinner, axe knife, sharpener. I know everyone is cringing at the "axe knife" but perhaps if I used 1/4" stock or better and added a differential HT, they could get away with banging on it when they forgot the right tools and it's snowing and approaching dark or whatever reason makes a guy hit his knife with a hammer.

 

[Frank Niro]

I used to make many knives for moose hunting and hunted myself. Moose hair is whose than sand so you try to do the minimum of cutting on it. The word was always cut from the inside of the skin not the outside. This almost always possible except for a starting gut opening cut. As well it was very common for moose hunters to have small folding saws. In a camp fire get together on my last moose hunt, of at least a dozen hunters ten or eleven had my knives and some had already been used for the current season. No one had a broken knife. I first used 440-C and then ATS-34 in the knives I was then selling.

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

I used to make many knives for moose hunting and hunted myself. Moose hair is whose than sand so you try to do the minimum of cutting on it. The word was always cut from the inside of the skin not the outside. This almost always possible except for a starting gut opening cut. As well it was very common for moose hunters to have small folding saws. In a camp fire get together on my last moose hunt, of at least a dozen hunters ten or eleven had my knives and some had already been used for the current season. No one had a broken knife. I first used 440-C and then ATS-34 in the knives I was then selling.

Thanks Frank,

I'm going to ask my cousins if they cut from the inside when possible. I also like stainless, and will probably go that way except for the one cousin who is head strong on carbon steel.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Thank you Rem,

What an informative post! I may have to make those cousins of mine a kit - skinner, axe knife, sharpener. I know everyone is cringing at the "axe knife" but perhaps if I used 1/4" stock or better and added a differential HT, they could get away with banging on it when they forgot the right tools and it's snowing and approaching dark or whatever reason makes a guy hit his knife with a hammer.

Isn't that called a cleaver? Might be a tad heavy to haul around in the bush though.

Better yet, and lighter, would be one of those folding big game bone saws.

On the farm slaughtering beef we usually quartered by splitting the carcus with a sawzall, but I've done it by hand a time or two with the classic large butchers "hack saw." Splitting the backbone can be a little bit like work though. Of course the knife work was usually done by tools that weren't anything to right home about, but they sure got the job done. (Assuming you kept a good steel on hand for a regular swipe or two or three.)

Seems like a knife that would skin well sure isn't going to be the tool to pound through bone. Seems like there might at least be a risk of chipping or rolling the edge. If not, then seems like the knife edge geometry required to hold up to bone whacking would be too thick for holding a good edge for skinning.

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

Phil,

At this rate I won't be making a sheath, but a tool belt!

 

[Phil Dwyer]

More like a duffel bag, or even a small trailer!

 

[Fletch Helical]

I have yet to dress out a moose but I have done quite a bit of deer. On thing that is possible with deer at least is you can actually run the knife along side the sternum and pop through the ribs with relative ease. It's basically just cartridge that connects it (at least on a deer) but I would imagine it's similar on a moose? If you can in fact do the same thing on a moose we basically eliminate the need to drive a knife through the bone. Anyone ever try this?

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

[/QUOTE]
Seems like a knife that would skin well sure isn't going to be the tool to pound through bone. Seems like there might at least be a risk of chipping or rolling the edge. If not, then seems like the knife edge geometry required to hold up to bone whacking would be too thick for holding a good edge for skinning.[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree on that for certain. I know I wasn't clear in my post but I wasn't trying to imply that they could have a knife good for skinning and whacking!

 

[Phil Dwyer]

I know that's not what you meant , but I wasn't sure about your cuzzes.

 

[ERIK KNIVES]

I'm not sure about them either

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

It is tough to beat D2 for something like this. It will run circles around something like VG10 for cutting flesh, for edge retention in this kind of application, and for toughness. And it rusts real slow. In my opinion, it is the finest steel for animal processing.

 

[rprocter]

Read my post, #356 here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=582468&page=18.
I do not know what the steel is for this knife but there is no doubt that it would field dress a moose just as easily as it did this deer. And that is my main point. It depends far less on the blade steel and much more on knowing how to properly do the job. Any of the modern steels, if well ground and properly sharpened and heat treated, will work. The differences quoted by the steel manufacturers as to "wear resistance", etc. are not that significant in real world knife use.
I say this from personal experience of owning a great many knives from inexpensive imports to very expensive Customs, which together have examples of nearly every steel used for knife blades. I have field dressed at least 75 deer, 3 moose and about 15 elk using a variety of these knives.
The hunters you speak of sound very unskilled. Trying to split a moose's sternum with any knife blade is simply wrong. Trying to get your blade to penetrate the sternum by striking the blade spine with a rock is simply stupid.
There are lots of available, light weight folding bone saws for cutting through bone. A knowledgeable, experienced hunter will always have a bone saw in his hunting pack. It can also be very helpful to build a temporary shelter should you get caught having to spend the night in the bush.
Your friends lack technique, not a knife with "the right steel".
roland

 

[butcher_block]

i was going to say a cpm3v pack ax with a longbeard that would be ground into a huge gut hook one the back the beard and a nice 3v bull nose skinner or baby bowie

that said i also agree that maybe a change in the manner of use would help a knife last longer