i have fired them with and without grip safeties, a lot of comp pistols have the grip safety pinned FWIW, i have large hands and have never had a problem not depressing the safety, IIRC the problem mostly occurs when attempting a fast draw and presentation, i can see were that would happen, i have 2 1911's right now (a kimber & a gold cup) and neither one is pinned, i dont know that the grip safety is very imperative on a series 80 myself, nor really a series 70, IIRC they were originally put on the 1911 to preclude ADs when dropped from a horse.
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any info grip safeties on 1911s
- Thread starter Mackenzie4856
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Massad Ayoob - who knows more about pistol self-defence and the subsequent court ordeal than you multiplied by me - advises against deactivating the grip safety.
In a nutshell (read his articles and books) he states that deactivating any safety suggests to a jury of non-gun people that you are of a certain, "unsafe/killer/looking for trouble" mindset.
He also advises against using home-loads for self-defence for the same reason.
maximus otter
Of course. And in a strange coincidence, just now, a late night repeat of a "Dateline" episode on NBC. On May 11, 2004, a law abiding, CCW holding, father of 7, met a stranger with a long history of uncontrolled violent behavior, and his two dogs, on a trail outside Mesa, Arizona. A confrontation occured, with no witnesses, and the CCW holder shot and killed the other man. He claimed self defense.
The DA decided to prosecute. Three of the issues the DA brought up at trial, and that jurors interviewed for the TV show took into account, were:
1) he shot him in the chest, instead of trying to "just wound him";
2) he was carrying a 10mm Kimber, a weapon "even more powerful than the police carry"; and
3) he was using Federal Hydrashok hollowpoints, designed "to kill".
We (well, maybe not Mr. Pin The Safety Back, but most of us) understand why these three issues are total BS. But regardless, they were used at trial, and the jurors took them seriously in considering their judgement.
Just imagine the DA's comments if the shooter had dectivated the Kimber's grip safety, making the gun "more deadly, easier to kill with, showing reckless disregard for human life" or whatever BS he would decide to spew.
Shooter was found guilty of second degree murder, and sentenced to ten years in prison.
Mr. Pin The Safety Back, like most internet dispensers of crappy advice, could get someone killed, or imprisoned, if anyone was foolish enough to listen to them.
And the real experts, like Ayoob, will keep on being ignored.
Back when, crappy, dangerous, advice was limited to a few who would listen in person. Now, crappy, dangerous, advice gets diseminated far and wide. One of the downsides of the Internet Age, I suppose.
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I've heard all of these arguments. I've read most of what Mr. Ayoob has written on these issues. I'm aware of what Mr. Ayoob advises.
Now, putting aside all the rhetoric, I would like one of you to please give me, in a reasonable tone, some indication of how in the world deactivating a grip safety would EVER get someone into trouble with a modern 1911 with a hammer block?
Thin about what a grip safety does. Think about the fact that an awful lot of modern firearms are based on the JMB design, but do not have grip safeties.
I'm a retired criminal defense attorney. I'm pretty up on trial procedures and practices. And I am here to tell you that the only way you would ever have to worry about such a ridiculous concern is if you had the worst defense counsel in the bar, and you yourself were too ill-advised to guide him through such problems.
I'm aware that the 1911 pistol has a large cadre of religious followers. It is a fine pistol. But a grip safety is not necessary on one.
Please brush up on your 1911 history. Seems that I'm not the only person who is aware of what Mr. Browning intended for his pistol.
Andy
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I'll give an example of when deactivating a grip safety *on a series 70 pistol*, designed without a disconnector (hammer block safety) can potentially cause someone trouble.
A few years ago, a shooting acquaintance of mine was shooting his highly tuned, series 70, custom Open gun at a USPSA match.
At the beginning of a stage which required a draw from the holster, this shooter lost control of his pistol (dropped it).
When it hit the ground the pistol discharged, shooting this person through the calf with a .38 Super ground.
His pistol had had the grip safety deactivated. It also had a 1.5 lb. trigger. And it had no hammer block safety or diconnecter to prevent just this kidn of accident.
He was lucky that he was the one shot, and not someone else.
Keep in mind that series 70 pistols are designed differently than current pistols.
Andy
A few years ago, a shooting acquaintance of mine was shooting his highly tuned, series 70, custom Open gun at a USPSA match.
At the beginning of a stage which required a draw from the holster, this shooter lost control of his pistol (dropped it).
When it hit the ground the pistol discharged, shooting this person through the calf with a .38 Super ground.
His pistol had had the grip safety deactivated. It also had a 1.5 lb. trigger. And it had no hammer block safety or diconnecter to prevent just this kidn of accident.
He was lucky that he was the one shot, and not someone else.
Keep in mind that series 70 pistols are designed differently than current pistols.
Andy
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First, I'm not advising anyone to do anything.
Second, your example, while well-publicized and unfortunate, is irrelevant to our discussion. The defendant in that case was in trouble for shooting an unarmed man. I would hazard to say that his attorney wasn't very good, and did a very poor job of martialling his client's evidence.
Dog Man, I simply ask that instead of becoming rude with your responses, that you address what I have said, and spend some time thinking about what I have said, rather than simply jerking your knee.
Andy
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Hmmm.... Yes, he certainly knew what he was doing. But the 1911 design has been improved upon in many ways since it was first introduced. As far as safety is concerned, the best thing ever done was the inclusion of a hammer block safety, which Mr. Browning didn't include in his design.
The grip safety was his answer to this problem. It is supposed to activate a safety preventing the pistol from firing if the pistol is dropped.
The hammer block has made the grip safety unnecessary. It has been kept on the pistol out of habit, rather than need.
Andy
TIZWIN
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At what point in the design's evolution did the grip safety occur? I have a Colt 1903 .32 Pocket pistol, made in 1904, that has a grip safety. It's also a Browning design.
If it was the Army that required the grip safety, why was it not on the original design? He had put one on the little .32 earlier.
Didn't some Lugers around this time also have a grip safety? And the S&W "Lemon Squeezer" had one. Anyone qualified to discuss the arcane subject of the history of grip safeties?
If it was the Army that required the grip safety, why was it not on the original design? He had put one on the little .32 earlier.
Didn't some Lugers around this time also have a grip safety? And the S&W "Lemon Squeezer" had one. Anyone qualified to discuss the arcane subject of the history of grip safeties?
Now my memory could be bad but I thought that what everyone is talking about is actually the 1911A1. The 1911 had no grip safety. The safety was an Army requirement after the inital release. I don't know what use the half cock position on the hammer is for either. If I remember correctly the army was afraid that soldiers would have the gun on condition one. Round in the chamber with the hammer back. The only correct way to carry a .45. They were concerned that having the weapon in that condition would pose a threat to soldiers if the hammer or gun was accidently dropped. I believe that was the reasoning for the grip safety. Now I need to state that I am doing this from memory and without a net.
So I might be mistaken but thats what I remember.I have fired several P-08 lugers and I can't say I every remember one with a grip safety but its been quite a few years.
KR
There is no emoticon for backpeddling.
You claimed that a deactivated safety could never be used against a defendant. I gave you an example where three irrelevant gun-related issues were not only used, but used with effect, as reported by the jurors. You do undestand what "irrelevant" means, right?
Still know more than actual attorneys, huh?
Try not using the :yawn: in your responses. Might keep my responses a bit more civil.
You give crappy, dangerous, advice, but as long as you do it politely with a smile, it's all ok, huh? Whatever. Those who listen to you are responsible for their own fates. Arguing guns, dogs, politics and religion, on the internet is too much of a PITA. Good luck to ya'. Try to stay out of prison.
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If my use of the :yawn: emoticon is what got under your skin so, I apologize.
But you are off base.
It is possible to refer to all kinds of cases where all kinds of things happened, but we are talking about the deactivation of grip safeties, not any of the things you brought up. If it doesn't have to do with grip safeties, it is apples to our oranges.
And I graduated from law school in 1989, just so's ya know.
Anyway, it's been informative, have a nice day.
Andy
TIZWIN
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The 1911 did indeed have a grip safety.
As did some Lugers.
Here's the Colt Pocket. The grip safety is flush with the frame until the piece is cocked.
And the old Lemon Squeezer.
Obviously, the grip safety is not unique to Browning designs, or to American weapons. Who came up with this?
As did some Lugers.
Here's the Colt Pocket. The grip safety is flush with the frame until the piece is cocked.
And the old Lemon Squeezer.
Obviously, the grip safety is not unique to Browning designs, or to American weapons. Who came up with this?
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I don't know the answer to that question. Looks like you are volunteering to do the research, though!
Andy
Andy
Yes, of course you did.
The voices in MY head think YOUR voices are funny, in a goofy delusional sort of way.
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Some people like myself because of size of hand and how they hold the gun may have problems with the grip safety.Then and only then should you pin the grip safety. ..BTW the above 'example ' of dangers of a pinned safety is a poor one because the gun has a 1.5 lb trigger !!! I have never made anything close to that light a trigger on anyone's gun I have worked with !!!
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Yup, that's the same problem I and lots of other people have.
I just gave the example above to show wht the grip safety is supposed to do.
The fellow who had the accident no longer has such a light trigger pull, and his pistols are series 80, these days.
Andy
tyr_shadowblade
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1) All LEOs are trained to shoot center of mass.
2) 10mm is carried by FBI Special Agents.
3) Hydrashoks are used by some State Troopers.
There is probably much more to this story than any of us know. Man w/ CCW is set upon by a criminal with 2 dogs in a secluded area and goes to prison for homicide? Did he owe the criminal money? Was he buying meth? Did he hunt the criminal down? Something doesn't sound right about this. . . .
As for grip safeties:
1) You can always "unpin" the grip safety -- rather quickly, if need be.
2) One of the world's most popular S/A automatics -- the Tokerov -- has no safeties (grip or other).
3) Revolvers and derringers generally do not have safeties, either.
sounds right to me tyr.......
as far as ayoob i love reading his stuff, great bathroom reading material FWIW, but i dont take all he says as gospel by any means, as far as knowing more than anyone otter speak for yourself.
if ya are in the right in a legit SD situation i dont think the equipment ya use will matter much (in TX anyway, they just passed a "no retreat" bill last month, they say its gonna be like the "wild west" out here pretty quick lol, i loved the "wild west myself "lol i cant wait)
all that said if it was a comp pistol and i fast drew it in competition, i might would deactivate it, on the street, i personally probably would not.
i honestly dont know why the old colt pocket pistol had them,
as far as ayoob i love reading his stuff, great bathroom reading material FWIW, but i dont take all he says as gospel by any means, as far as knowing more than anyone otter speak for yourself.
if ya are in the right in a legit SD situation i dont think the equipment ya use will matter much (in TX anyway, they just passed a "no retreat" bill last month, they say its gonna be like the "wild west" out here pretty quick lol, i loved the "wild west myself "lol i cant wait)
all that said if it was a comp pistol and i fast drew it in competition, i might would deactivate it, on the street, i personally probably would not.
i honestly dont know why the old colt pocket pistol had them,
You missed my point. Of course those are irrelevant, BS arguments by the DA. The point was that 1) he was allowed to make them, and 2) they influenced the jurors. Just as a deactivated safety would.
Again you miss the point. There were no witnesses. The jury believed the basic points of the defense. They still, for reasons that included the three "irrelevant, BS points" above, found him guilty.
<sigh> For the third time, you completely miss the point. I am not arguing that grip safeties are necessary. John Browning didn't think they were necessary, either. Many manufacturers don't find them necessary. The point, for the last time, is that if the manufacturer puts a grip safety on your gun, and you deactivate it, it can be used against you, if you ever have to use the gun in self-defense.
I'm done with the argument. Brick Wall Syndrome setting in.