Any Special Care needed for Damascus?

If you notice the color of the material in the oil is black (metel) and not reddish brown (rust). If you want to lose some of that metel inbetween the nickel layers knock youself out.
 
There are no molecules in steel, and oil isn't going to break down any of the metallic bonds. Modern pattern damascus is made for cosmetic purposes. Some of it is highly corrosion resistant some of it is not. A 1095/L6 blend is going to rust very easily as both of those steels have little corrosion resistance. You can effect the surface finish in many ways but you can just polish it clean and etch it again if the pattern gets really distorted through scratches or heavily localized corrosion. Just maintain it as you would a regular blade which had a decorative finish of some sort if the cosmetic effect is of importance to you.

-Cliff
 
The oil cannot get between the layers unless it is improperly made. Oil will however (IMO) break down the molecules at the surface and make the lines irregular. The whole reason for Damascus is to give the blade superior stain resistance. They did that so you dont have to put anything on the blade to protect it. I'm very careful what i do to an expensive blade (even when i use it, but use it i will even if it messes up the blade cause that is what it is made for).
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Um ... um ... well ... um ...
 
Bill DeShivs said:
And that says it all!
Bill
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No it don"t! Someone is FOS but it is not me.

First of all it is not all steel, nickel is not steel. Steel also has molecules like almost everything else.

molecule 1. the smallest particle of a substance that retains the properties of the substance and is composed of one or more atoms

Do Damascus makers laminate better than Bridgestone Motorcycles did?

Bridgestone laminated chrome over their pistons and the chrome wont stick, because the oil can work its way between the laminate! They just make stuff out of rubber now. You may ask me how i know this. I am a certified motorcycle mecanic. I have seen chromed pistons with the laminate peeling.

If he cant hack a suggestion i wont make more to him. It is for everyones benifit though. We might find out later what everyone thinks of my suggestions. He called me on it so here i am.

Cat can keep rubbing the oil into the Damascus for all i care. I coat my knives with something much better that is readily available but Cat has offended me so i'm not saying right now what it is. Others use it.

What i use wont lose that top phosphoric acid etching acid coat that you lost with oil.
 
sog said:
First of all it is not all steel, nickel is not steel.
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Steel is not a pure elemental substance, it is an alloy of iron, nickel can be one of the alloying elements. There are many steels which are extremely high in nickel. As well not all damascus even has an nickel in it.

Steel also has molecules like almost everything else.
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Metallic bonding is very different than covalent or ionic bonds in molecules. The lay defination of molecule could be distorted into something like several grains of a steel, but in general when you are talking about such issues you don't use lay definations because it will lead to exactly the types of conclusions you are reaching.

Bridgestone laminated chrome over their pistons and the chrome wont stick, because the oil can work its way between the laminate!
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That isn't analagous to damascus. Damascus has the metals forge welded together. The grain structure after forging is recreated and refined by several normalizing cycles and finally set with a austenization and soak.

You can see an etching effect very similar to what you see in damascus if you etch an edge quenched blade. However if you oil that blade you have not then risked the edge from cracking off and the oil will not soak down into that line any more than it will soak into the rest of the blade.

Have you actually seen oil cause a damascus blade to de-laminate and returned this to the maker who told you it was because you oiled it?

-Cliff
 
"Bridgestone laminated chrome over their pistons and the chrome wont stick, because the oil can work its way between the laminate! "
Chrome is applied by electroplating. The bonding on plating is different than welding. Also, most pistons are aluminum, and aluminum is especially difficult to plate.
Trust me, oil won't delaminate damascus steel.
Bill
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Steel is not a pure elemental substance, it is an alloy of iron, nickel can be one of the alloying elements. There are many steels which are extremely high in nickel. As well not all damascus even has an nickel in it.
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Splitting hairs there. Can you prove 1095 has more than a trace amount of nickel. Maybe all substances have nickel in them. Maybe all substances have iron in them too, ad. infinitum.

Metallic bonding is very different than molecular or ionic bonds. There is another defination of molecule which is more of a lay viewpoint so you could say something like several grains of a steel are a molecule, but in general when you are talking about such issues you don't use lay definations because it will lead to exactly the types of conclusions you are reaching.
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Perhaps your a rocket scientist. My hats off to you maybe. What you are saying is that a grain of steel is the same size as an atom or less. It takes a molecule to hold more than 1 atom. I'll hang my collage diploma on that.

That isn't analagous to damascus, that would be similar to gluing a laminate to a piece of wood. As I noted there isn't a distinct glue in damascus. If you forge weld two pieces of metal together and reharden them they become one piece of metal. The grain structure after forging is recreated and refined by several normalizing cycles and finally set with a austenization and soak.
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I agree that welding to steel is better than electroplating to aluminum.

Note you can see an etching effect very similar to what you see in damascus if you etch an edge quenched blade. You will then see a distinct hardening line. However if you oil that blade you have not then risked the edge from cracking off and the oil will not soak down into that line any more than it will soak into the rest of the blade.

Have you actually seen oil cause a damascus blade to de-laminate and returned this to the maker who told you it was because you oiled it?

-Cliff
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As far as i know no one has rubbed oil into or on the blade of a damascus knife every day, so i can't prove it. I wont cover a damascus blade with oil when i got something better to put on it. I know of two damacus makers that use something better only (as far as i know) and there is better than that IMO.
 
sog said:
Can you prove 1095 has more than a trace amount of nickel.
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1095 by defination would have nickel as an impurity, however L6 for example has nickel as part of the composition of the steel. There are ingot steels which are high in nickel and damascus which contains none.

Perhaps your a rocket scientist.
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PhD in molecular physics, which is kind of ironic considering.

What you are saying is that a grain of steel is the same size as an atom or less.
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No, I am saying you would not in general say a molecule of steel. The steel used in knives is a complex mix of many phases and the general matrix is a crystal structure held together by metallic and not ionic/covalent bonds.

I agree that welding to steel is better than electroplating to aluminum.
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Damascus steel is forged welded.

As far as i know no one has rubbed oil into or on the blade of a damascus knife every day, so i can't prove it.
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So why would you assert it would delaminate, did a maker actually tell you that would happen and that you should no oil damascus?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
So why would you assert it would delaminate, did a maker actually tell you that would happen and that you should no oil damascus?

-Cliff
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I didn't say it would delaminate. I am not going to the makers unless i need to. I said (quote): Oil will work its' way into the laminate and make them separate. (end quote) The separation would be on a electron microscopic level. I base this on the fact that black metallic material is released when oil is "rubbed" on the blade. It is an extremely minute amount but any metel loss is too much when it can be averted especially when there is many layers of steel.
 
When layers separate that is delamination. Carbon steel blades will lose their oxidization to any surface abrasion, it takes awhile for a patina to stabilize unless it has been heavily etched. I can use a 1095 blade for example on onions and then wipe it on cloth and there will be oxidization debris on the cloth.

So you did hear from several makers that oil on a damascus blade will actually cause the layers to separate? You may want to read Cashen's articles on forging as he describes the metallurgy in detail from a knifemakers point of view. There is a lot of nonsense being propogated about forging from makers which has no basis at all in actual scientific fact.

-Cliff
 
Keith, he has noted that he has been told it by several makers which you would assume make damascus. It isn't uncommon for people to repeat what they have been told to by makers without critical examination especially if makers are well known. How many makers will constantly promote forging for attributes which have no basis in fact.

-Cliff
 
I understand that Cliff, but I just figured that since he seems to believe what it is that he is stating that maybe he has found some research that supports what these makers have told him.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
So you did hear from several makers that oil on a damascus blade will actually cause the layers to separate?

-Cliff
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I never said that. I said: (quote) I know of two damacus makers that use something better only

I was told that paste wax should be used. I know of others that use something better though.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
sog, where do you get this stuff from. Please point me to some reference articles that support your supposed facts.
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I gave facts. You do not accept them. Fact: Steel has molecules. I was told steel has none. Why should i accept anything from someone if they will not accept anything from me? Fact: Chrome delaminates from aluminum. Both are metels. 1095 and nickel are metels. I conceded that nickel and 1095 are probably laminated better than chrome and aluminum but the fact remains that metel will delaminate. I think any lamination under the right circumstance will delaminate IMO.

It is stated in this thread that nickel and steel will not delaminate. Prove that! What are the facts there? I gave you my facts.
 
After reading that last post you have shown me how much you actually know. You say what you have posted are facts. They are not.
 
I don't understand where you are getting the 1095 and nickel from in the first place. Very little damascus is made with pure nickel. The combination would most likely be 1095 and 15N20 or L-6. 15N20 and L-6 are steels that only have 1.5% nickel content.
 
sog said:
I was told that paste wax should be used.
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So there was no mention of oil at all and you came up with this hypothesis based on the fact that you observed some of the surface corrosion being removed and that chrome comes off of bumpers?

sog said:
Fact: Steel has molecules. I was told steel has none.
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No it doesn't. You don't use lay definations of terms in any kind of arguement about behavior of substances. Just like if say something is conserved in a chemical reaction this doesn't mean what people say when they say that food was conserved on a survival trip. Molecules have specific types of bonds, ionic/covalent. Metals have metallic bonds and are large mulit-phase crystal structures.

Chrome delaminates from aluminum.
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This isn't the same bonding process.

I think any lamination under the right circumstance will delaminate IMO.
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Take a normal cheap san-mai blade which you can buy for $5 and soak it in oil for an extended period of time and see if it then delaminates.

It is stated in this thread that nickel and steel will not delaminate. Prove that! What are the facts there?
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The facts are by the nature of the forge welding. If you want to understand the process in detail then read Cashen's article on forging.

-Cliff
 
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