Any Special Care needed for Damascus?

[sog]

So there was no mention of oil at all and you came up with this hypothesis based on the fact that you observed some of the surface corrosion being removed and that chrome comes off of bumpers?

The starter of the thread mentioned oil. Chrome comes off pistons.

There are no molecules in steel, and oil isn't going to break down any of the metallic bonds.

Alloys like steel have a crystalline grain structure. Yes, there are molecules of materials in the steel

turbo-1
Recognized, Blue Ribbon (BR), PhysicsForums Contributor

What kind of oil. There may be a chemical reaction in the oil, or something in the steel. Magnetite (Fe3O4) is black.

Astronuc
Engineering Guru
Recognized, BR, PhysicsForum Contributor

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, things like chromium carbide are present in steels, and have a molecular formula, C23C6 / C7C3. However steel itself isn't molecular but has a crystal structure and thus you can't say something like FeXCY is a molecule of steel. Similar you would not say something like :

Oil will however (IMO) break down the molecules at the surface and make the lines irregular.

This says the oil is inducing a chemical reaction breaking molecular bonds, this doesn't happen.

That has to be steel between the nickel layers that is bleeding from the liquid oil.

1095 and L6 blade are commonly used for pattern damascus. However you could take L6 and make the same layer structure. You would not see a pattern as there was no contrast but the same layers would be present. Thus your assertion would imply that all folded steels would be compromized by oils.

Oil will work its' way into the laminate and make them separate.

Again this speaks of the layers as having gaps when in fact they are bonded just as the layers themselves are internally bonded. You are not in essense gluing two substances together as much as you are gluing to pieces of glue together and once it dries it is all just glue. Welding metals is very different from plating and the properties of one do not imply the properties of the other. Ask the same person in the above if your hypothesis of oil causing delamination of damascus blades by breaking moleculers bonds in the steel is correct.

-Cliff

 

[sog]

1095 and L6 blade are commonly used for pattern damascus. However you could take L6 and make the same layer structure. You would not see a pattern as there was no contrast but the same layers would be present. Thus your assertion would imply that all folded steels would be compromized by oils.

-Cliff

This thread is about a damascus with nickel layered on.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Nickel damascus isn't steel with nickel plated, it is made by taking layers of a steel like 1095 and then layers of high nickel steels like L6 or 203E or pure nickel and then forge welding the metals together, then folding/twisting the billet to make the pattern form. Gaps in the layers which allowed the oil to penetrate would be voids in the steel and cause huge problems with strength, toughness and wear resistance. But even such gaps would not cause a problem with oil because it is inert and actually protects steel which is why you use it on knives.

Here is a proposition for you. Contact Kevin Cashen and buy from him a small billet of damascus which can be turned into a small utility/hunting knife of say 4-6". Ask him to soak it in a bottle of mineral oil until such time as he is ready to make a knife. At that point if the damascus has delaminated because it was penetrated and broken down by the oil and Cashen agrees in public that this is the expected behavior of properly forged damascus then I will pay you both the cost of the damascus billet and buy you a new piece of your chosen pattern from Cashen in the same size. If the damascus has not delaminated then I get to keep the billet.

-Cliff

 

[Keith Montgomery]

This thread is about a damascus with nickel layered on.

No it's not. Are you saying that this whole time you thought we were discussing electroplated steel? This thread is about pattern welded steel that is made from simple carbon steel and a steel with a fairly low nickel content.

 

[Doug C]

Is this the bleeding Damascus thread ?

Doug

 

[GibsonFan]

The whole reason for Damascus is to give the blade superior stain resistance.

It's my understanding that damascus was originally developed to utilized expensive, high-hardness steel in conjunction with cheaper, softer steel, even plain iron, to exploit the advantages of both. (hardness/sharpness and toughness). I doubt very much that stain-resistance was a big factor a few hundred years ago.

I gave facts. You do not accept them. Fact: Steel has molecules. I was told steel has none. Why should i accept anything from someone if they will not accept anything from me?

Because what you are offering as "facts" is a large steamy load of nonsense, perhaps?

A laminate is not the same as a weld, nor is a plating the same as a laminate. If the three were the same, it would take no skill at all to stack up layers of sheet stock with epoxy in between and make a "damascus" blade. Chrome electroplated to steel or aluminum, in a high-temperature, highly-stressed environment such as an engine cylinder, is certainly not the same as two or 200 layers of relatively similar alloys forge-welded together, even if every other layer is nickel.

Oil protects steel from the elements, it doesn't "degrade" steel or "delaminate" it. With all due respect, sog, you need to do some research rather than relying on hearsay that you "know" is right.

If I had never picked up or shown interest in a piece of steel before reading this thread, I'd know who to believe. People who reason out their points of view, with corroborating information... or one person who declares "facts" with no back-up at all... easy to figure out.

 

[sog]

or pure nickel and then forge welding the metals together,
-Cliff

Read the original post.

 

[sog]

No it's not. Are you saying that this whole time you thought we were discussing electroplated steel? This thread is about pattern welded steel that is made from simple carbon steel and a steel with a fairly low nickel content.

Read the original post. Pistons are plated using electricity. Please re-read.

 

[sog]

Is this the bleeding Damascus thread ?

Doug

Cat got black in the oil when he rubbed it on the damascus. If you want to think it is bleeding go ahead. You may want to keep it to yourself though.

 

[David Schott]

Never seen so much misinformation contained in one place...err...person.

Oil your damascus if you want. The only thing that will come off it is carbides if etched and not buffed. Most damascus is shipped pickled in oil if purchased through a dealer.

All the ideas ive read about the reason behind damascus or its properties with oil have been ignored by sog in this thread....

Sometimes people will continue to cut their own face off in an attempt to save face. i think this is an example of where someone needs to say "ok, i wasnt sure, thanks for correcting me"

 

[sog]

It's my understanding that damascus was originally developed to utilized expensive, high-hardness steel in conjunction with cheaper, softer steel, even plain iron, to exploit the advantages of both. (hardness/sharpness and toughness). I doubt very much that stain-resistance was a big factor a few hundred years ago.

I think the steel already had all those attributes. I think it was for flexability and stain resistance more importantly. Stain resistance is where i think is most important in care. You'll have to sharpen it for your advantages and no one has touched on that.

Because what you are offering as "facts" is a large steamy load of nonsense, perhaps?

A laminate is not the same as a weld, nor is a plating the same as a laminate. If the three were the same, it would take no skill at all to stack up layers of sheet stock with epoxy in between and make a "damascus" blade.

Prove it. Damascus is a laminate. It is forge welded.

Damascus has the metals forge welded together.

-Cliff

Chrome electroplated to steel or aluminum, in a high-temperature, highly-stressed environment such as an engine cylinder, is certainly not the same as two or 200 layers of relatively similar alloys forge-welded together, even if every other layer is nickel.

No one said it was!

Oil protects steel from the elements, it doesn't "degrade" steel or "delaminate" it. With all due respect, sog, you need to do some research rather than relying on hearsay that you "know" is right.

Can you prove oil doesn't degrade steel?

Steel has Magnetite in it which is black (it has carbon too which is black) and that is what might be removed when oil is rubbed on it. Get unpolished non-stainless steel (that isn't rusty) and rub clean oil on it and see if the oil turns black.

If I had never picked up or shown interest in a piece of steel before reading this thread, I'd know who to believe. People who reason out their points of view, with corroborating information... or one person who declares "facts" with no back-up at all... easy to figure out.

I have shown back-up. Who is your back-up. Where are the statements to back-up what you say?

 

[sog]

Never seen so much misinformation contained in one place...err...person.

Oil your damascus if you want. The only thing that will come off it is carbides if etched and not buffed. Most damascus is shipped pickled in oil if purchased through a dealer.

All the ideas ive read about the reason behind damascus or its properties with oil have been ignored by sog in this thread....

Sometimes people will continue to cut their own face off in an attempt to save face. i think this is an example of where someone needs to say "ok, i wasnt sure, thanks for correcting me"

Carbides come off! Amazing the things you learn! You got to show something somewhere for me to believe that! Talk about misinformation!

Keep waving them on. They piled on top of me in High School football when I was quarterback. When they got off i walked it off.

 

[Mackenzie4856]

Carbides come off! Amazing the things you learn! You got to show something somewhere for me to believe that! Talk about misinformation!

Keep waving them on. They piled on top of me in High School football when I was quarterback. When they got off i walked it off.

But his career was ended by a tragic accident involving a bottle of massage oil and delaminating muscles....

 

[David Schott]

Just because black comes off etched metal when you rub it with oil doesnt prove a thing. You can rub an etched blade with a clean cloth and black will come off. You cant then claim that cloth delaminates steel.

I dont think you have any experience with damascus at all. Any supplied information would be wasted on you, imho. If you want to learn more, read up on it and ask questions. You are jumping to conclusions that have no basis in science or real life practice.

I have tons of polished steel. If i rub oil on it, no black comes off. The idea that damascus was made for corrosion resistance is simply absurd.

Not sure what else to say here except reader beware. Anyone with legitimate questions can ask them in the makers area where we will be happy to answer them.

 

[Doug C]

That has to be steel between the nickel layers that is bleeding from the liquid oil.

Apparently the secret's out.

Doug

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Can you prove oil doesn't degrade steel?

This should be obvious because it is used to protect it from oxidization. In general when you make an assertion you have the responsibility as to its affirmation, you don't challenge everyone else to prove you wrong. As I offered to you in the above, I gave you the ability to prove your assertion and at the same time recieve a free price of damascus.

Steel has Magnetite in it which is black (it has carbon too which is black) and that is what might be removed when oil is rubbed on it.

Magnetite or iron oxide is one of the sources of iron ore which is used to make steel. The carbon in steels is in the form of carbides or directly in the martensite as it is what gives it the hardness it can obtain. It doesn't exist in the form of graphite in most steels and thus you are not going to have large inclusions of macroscopic pieces of carbon in your knives.

Here is the origional post :

have a new knife. first damascus for me. Tommy Gann made steel. 1095 and nickle.

1095 and nickle damascus as noted isn't similar to chrome or nickle plating, it is made by forge welding materials together thus you would not use properties of one to infer behavior of the other.

Carbides come off! Amazing the things you learn!

Carbides in steel are fairly inert in regards to oxidization as they are essentially things like CrXCY and when steel rusts it is because the iron is being oxidized so it is possible to induce carbide tear out if the iron rusts away from around the carbides. However carbides are generally too small to see as even the large ones are 50 microns.

-Cliff

 

[sog]

You can cut down what I say. When I can show someone saying steel has molecules and prove it wrong. No one has anything to say about that!

Now you say carbides have molecules. Here is what Integral (Physics Forum Mentor) said: Now, let us consider elemental metals such as Gold, Silver, Iron, copper and Mercury. Do these materials have molecules? NO they do not, they are elemental and consist of single atoms of the material. In this type of material you can isolate single atoms each of which are identical. Remember your definition of a molecule; "composed of multiple atoms" clearly elemental metals do not consist of molecules. So you have to see that there are NO MOLECULES in elemental metals.

I showed where a Engineering Guru said there may be a chemical reaction in the oil. Yet I am harped on that there cannot be a chemical reaction in oil put on steel or perhaps any metel.

It will be useless for me if I prove that damascus will delaminate because it will go unnoticed just as the other things I proved.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

When I can show someone saying steel has molecules and prove it wrong. No one has anything to say about that!

I commented on it, you are taking what is said out of context and misinterpreting it through lack of fundamental chemistry and physics. Yes there is carbon in steel for example, but it doesn't exist in its elemental form just like there is chlorine in salt but it doesn't behave like chlorine gas and you can't release the chlorine as a gas by dissolving the salt in water or crushing up coarse salt in a grinder because you are not "crushing the salt molecules". Molecules of steel is jibberish because steel is a complex multi-phase crystal structure and the layers of steel are not held together by molecular bonds. It is like when people say thing like "That was a fast rate of speed you were traveling." or "This lock holds 1000 lbs of pressure." They are again jibberish because the terms are mixed up.

If you really want to understand steel, then start with "Metallurgy Theory and Practice" by Allen. You can find it used on Ebay for really cheap. This will show you what steel actually is on a basic level and how the elements in steel no longer have their elemental characteristics and more because they are part of steel. It also starts off from very basic principles so you don't need any background in chemisty/physics to read it. Once you finish this then go through Verhoeven's book on steels for knifemakers which is available on line. This is a lot more technical than Allen's. Following that read an ASM tool steel reference such as Krauss which will explain in detail the various types of steel and how they get their properties from their composition. For some information on damascus, then ask makers like Cashen who will discuss in public the expected properties.

Here is what Integral (Physics Forum Mentor) ...

There are explanations for lay people and then there are actual definations used for fundamental discussion, you don't interchange the two. Ask specifically on that forum if applying oil to pattern damascus will induce delamination and if so which process is causing it. Take this arguement to a metallurgist and ask them to comment on it. This is how you proceed in scientific research. You do not simply take one viewpoint and ignore all others. A hypothesis has to stand up to critical evaluation/defense. It also has to be able to predict new behavior, be logically consistent. If oil would significant damage pattern damascus it should also damage folded non-pattern steel because the same bonds are present.

It will be useless for me if I prove that damascus will delaminate because it will go unnoticed just as the other things I proved.

At the very least you get a free piece of damascus off of Cashen.

-Cliff

 

[howiesatwork]

You can cut down what I say. When I can show someone saying steel has molecules and prove it wrong. No one has anything to say about that!

Ask a metallurgist (metals engineer) if there are molecules in steels. Answer: No.

Now you say carbides have molecules. Here is what Integral (Physics Forum Mentor) said: Now, let us consider elemental metals such as Gold, Silver, Iron, copper and Mercury. Do these materials have molecules? NO they do not, they are elemental and consist of single atoms of the material. In this type of material you can isolate single atoms each of which are identical. Remember your definition of a molecule; "composed of multiple atoms" clearly elemental metals do not consist of molecules. So you have to see that there are NO MOLECULES in elemental metals.

You are the one that provided the "fact" that steel has molecules... Now you have provided an answer that it does not. Maybe you learned something, and have failed to recognize knowledge?

I showed where a Engineering Guru said there may be a chemical reaction in the oil. Yet I am harped on that there cannot be a chemical reaction in oil put on steel or perhaps any metel.

Well the darkening of the oil is from the oil and abrasion used to remove it that lifts surface oxides from the steel. On a clean, polished steel, there will be nothing for the oil to remove, unless you use an abrasive to remove the oil, causing particulates to be retained in the oil...

It will be useless for me if I prove that damascus will delaminate because it will go unnoticed just as the other things I proved.

Damascus is not a laminate, but is a solid, and therefore incapable of delamination.
No, It will not go unnoticed that you have proved ignorance at many points in your "proofs".
Please go back to the beginning, and actually try to comprehend that others here are not arguing for the sake of argument, but have given you valid reasons to prove your original post to be incorrect.