Any way to expand upon my sharpening supplies?

Noctis3880

Noctis3880

Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
11,409
Here's my current supplies:
-DMT Duosharp Plus 8" Benchstones(XC, C, F, EF)
-DMT Diamond Pastes(6 micron, 3 micron, 1 micron).
-Chromium Semi-Paste 0.5 micron on Balsa Wood.
-Dupont Diamond Spray 0.25 micron on Balsa Wood.
-EdgePro Apex(120, 220, 320, 600, 1000 grit stones)(least used)
-Paper Wheels(Grit Wheel, Slotted Wheel with white rouge, Slotted Wheel intended for use with Veritas Honing Compound, when I get it).(most used)
-Spyderco Sharpmaker(Med, Fine, Ultra Fine).

Each of these sets have one type of shortcoming or another. EdgePro is very slow at lowering the edge angles, the angles are different on each side, the true angles are different than what you set it at because most knives rest on the secondary bevel, and scratches on the blade from the metal filings are common and require taping over the blade itself(quite a hassle). The Duosharp benchstones can't sharpen recurves and my blades seem to get snagged in the holes every now and then. The Paper Wheels are nice and fast, but it seems fairly easy to end up with a sloppy edge even with 80% of the surface covered in wax to slow the cutting speed(though both the grit and wax seems to last forever). I just got my Spyderco Sharpmaker in today, but the cutting speed of the medium rods seem painfully slow even when the angle is already "in the neighborhood" of 15 degrees per side(not sure about the sandpaper trick, it just seems to make more sense to have an extremely coarse rod for it).

I've been considering a set of Naniwa Chosera and Super stones to experience some of that "authentic" japanese knife sharpening. The problems I see with that is that there will be a constant need for flattening(not even sure how to tell when I should), it will be an exercise in futility with the wear resistant super steels I tend to go for, and I can't sharpen any recurves(which takes my favorite ZT 0301 and BM 710-1 out of the equation).

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just get a DMT EEF Benchstone and call it a day. My stropping technique is pitiful and more often than not seems to dull my edge rather than sharpen it(hence, why I love my slotted paper wheels), thus why I would prefer a more forgiving benchstone with a perfectly flat and solid surface. Also, my last knife sharpened on the EF diamond stone seemed to have an edge that would make a "crisp" cut on paper. It's hard to describe really, but it felt sharper than my previous edges, so I'm wondering if diamonds are the way to go.
 
You have enough equipment to sharpen just about anything, and sharpen to any level of perfection anyone would want. If you're having difficulties with any of your tools, perhaps the problem can be better solved by improving your skills with each of them, rather than looking for more or different. (Please remember, this is just my opinion. It might not be fact.)

I have pretty much what you have, except for the paper wheels. (I do also have the DMT Aligner clamp and a RazorEdge clamp and stones. And a ridiculous number of strops of varying leathers and compounds, and all sorts of odd stones.) But with just the tools you and I share, I have no difficulties getting any sort of edge on large knives, small knives, straight edges , recurves, etc., etc. Perhaps it has to do with 50+ years of sharpening experience. Perhaps it has to do with luck. There is a remote chance that it has to do with skills and ability, and that's the one I'd recommend to you to work on, rather than hoping to buy some sort of Magic Sharpener.

I agree with you that one sharpener isn't suitable for all situations. I use the EdgePro, the Sharpmaker, and the DMT often. Just today I used the RazorEdge clamp to sharpen an Opinel. I could have used any of the others to do that, but I wanted to watch a football game while I sharpened it and the RazorEdge is about the easiest to use without paying ANY attention to it. That Opinel is now sharp enough to cut through bad dreams. I could have reached that same degree of sharp with any of the tools you and I share. So can you.

Pick one and learn to use it. Learn to use it well. I mean learn it so well that you can call yourself an expert with it. Don't use anything else until you master it. Then move the the next tool. Learn it. Master it. Don't let your tools rule you. You must learn to rule them.

Stitchawl
 
Actually I get the feeling that "perfection" might be $300 away with the Wicked Edge Sharpener. Diamonds to cut faster and leave that "crisp" edge, and as a result of the diamonds the stones will be equal in size and never need flattening. The clamp system will allow for more accurate angles without being affected by grind type. Only real downside is the lack of even finer stropping pastes and they don't sell the leather strops by themselves.

However, I'm strongly leaning towards freehand sharpening because I find it exceptionally relaxing, even therapeutic. Certainly it won't help if I need that edge on my EDC before heading off to work, but I really like it on my days off.
 
recurves can be done on bench stones no problem but it'll be a lot easier on a waterstone because even the corner cut. all you have to do is following the curve of the blade with the handle like you do at the tip but a recurves mean that you'll have to lower the handle and play with the stone's corner.

it's not much slower if you're not used to go back and forth on your stone sharpening in section (wich i do usually as what i sharpen the most are large chef's knives).

and imho waterstones are a lot better than diamonds a 1000grit JIS from a good maker cuts as fast as a dmt 600 if not faster, the EEF is a joke compared to a 10K waterstone both in term of speed and result .... i've yet to get a better edge straight from a diamond benchstone than i get on Japanese waterstones regardless wich grit i stop at. stropping evens things a lot but i still prefer waterstones, exept at very low grits and for the pocket.


this is only my opinion of course.
 
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pwet said:
recurves can be done on bench stones no problem but it'll be a lot easier on a waterstone because even the corner cut. all you have to do is following the curve of the blade with the handle like you do at the tip but a recurves mean that you'll have to lower the handle and play with the stone's corner.

it's not much slower if you're not used to go back and forth on your stone sharpening in section (wich i do usually as what i sharpen the most are large chef's knives).

and imho waterstones are a lot better than diamonds a 1000grit JIS from a good maker cuts as fast as a dmt 600 if not faster, the EEF is a joke compared to a 10K waterstone both in term of speed and result .... i've yet to get a better edge straight from a diamond benchstone than i get on Japanese waterstones regardless wich grit i stop at. stropping evens things a lot but i still prefer waterstones, exept at very low grits and for the pocket.


this is only my opinion of course.
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Well, I think knifenut1013 would disagree with you, though I have no personal experience with japanese waterstones. I think it mostly depends on the wear resistance of the steel you're working with. I would agree that a waterstone is better for recurves than diamond since there is abrasives on the side whereas the diamonds are only on the top.
 
stitchawl said:
You have enough equipment to sharpen just about anything, and sharpen to any level of perfection anyone would want. If you're having difficulties with any of your tools, perhaps the problem can be better solved by improving your skills with each of them, rather than looking for more or different.... ....Pick one and learn to use it. Learn to use it well. I mean learn it so well that you can call yourself an expert with it. Don't use anything else until you master it. Then move the the next tool. Learn it. Master it. Don't let your tools rule you. You must learn to rule them.

Stitchawl
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Probably the best answer in the first reply you got.

Also your assesment of the Edge Pro is probably due to not using it enough. The EP sharpens at the same angle on both sides... if you're getting different angles, something else is going on. The "true angle" isn't as important as consistency, but if you need to know it, it can easily be figured out. (If you think about it, the "true angle" would have to be calculated on the Wicked Edge as well.) The other issues you bring up on the EP can be easily dealt with. The same with the Sharpening Wheels... a little more practice and your bevels will improve.

You'll also find if you get really good with one method, you're results will improve with other methods, because you'll better learn what it takes to make a sharp edge.

Just about all sharpening methods have issues that have to be dealt with. The Wicked Edge is no different. While there are some advantages to the way it sharpens (mainly quicker and a bit easier in some cases) it also has problems to solve. The end result is no better or worse than other methods, if you learn how to use them.

I think picking one method that you have now and sticking with it for a while, (or if you want to freehand on waterstones, get what you want and stick with it), you'll see improved results. If you're using decent equipment, the results depend on you, not what you're using.

cbw
 
I dont think there is a perfect sharpening system out there (for me anyway). All of them have there strong and weak points. Every system has a flaw.

I currently use the Edge Pro Apex, DMT Aligner, Lansky and Work Sharp Knife Sharpener.

I find that sometimes one works better than the other depending on the knife and whether it is a general low end kitchen knife or a high dollar custom.

To me the fun of having sharpening as a hobby is the never ending quest for the perfect sharpening system!
 
The differences between your setup and mine is that I went to ceramic instead of diamond bench stones and I don't have the EdgePro product. Last year, I got myself a full set of water stones, mostly out of curiosity and I had a few scandi grind knives. That's the only time I ever use the water stones.

As far as I'm concerned, I wasted money on the ceramic bench stones, and the Sharpmaker is only used when I need something portable. So 90% of the work is done on the wheels, 2% on the water stones, and 8% on the Sharpmaker. I skip all the stropping I used to do and go to the slotted wheels.

I don't know if the water stones were worth the price. I hardly ever use it. But it was fun learning to use it. It's got a feel to it that's missing on the ceramics or diamond that gave me real feedback. I think it's one of the methods that will reward you when you master it. Very old school. :) For me, it's not practical but neither is owning 100+ knives.
 
the EEF is a joke compared to a 10K waterstone both in term of speed and result
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This sounds strange to me. My DMT xx-fine is excellent. I have no clue what you mean by being a joke in terms of speed or result?

The xx-fine is just a 1/2 dozen passes to finish an already superb edge. I don't want to do anything much faster than a 1/2 dozen strokes or leave a semi-glossy finish to my edge, making it ready for the strop if I want to go there next.

What the heck are you doing on that 10K waterstone that requires cutting a lot of time and what result are you referring to?

Just wondering, don't care for an argument. :)
 
cziv said:
What the heck are you doing on that 10K waterstone that requires cutting a lot of time and what result are you referring to?

Just wondering, don't care for an argument. :)
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what i mean : take a proper bevel finished with EF dmt, then take it to the EEF, you'll never get rid of the EF scratch pattern in a 1/2 dozen of strokes. take the same bevel on a decent 8k japanese waterstone and you'll get a much more polished bevel and a more refined edge as well. that's what i mean.

i can jump from 1k shapton pro to 8k chocera no problem, dmt advise not to do the same with 1200 EF to 8K EEF

and i hate the feel of a diamond stone. waterstone provide more informations , i can feel when i hit the edge on my 1k, i can feel when i flipped the burr on my polishing stones without touching the edge ... on diamond plates i can't.
 
pwet said:
what i mean : take a proper bevel finished with EF dmt, then take it to the EEF, you'll never get rid of the EF scratch pattern in a 1/2 dozen of strokes. take the same bevel on a decent 8k japanese waterstone and you'll get a much more polished bevel and a more refined edge as well. that's what i mean.

i can jump from 1k shapton pro to 8k chocera no problem, dmt advise not to do the same with 1200 EF to 8K EEF

and i hate the feel of a diamond stone. waterstone provide more informations , i can feel when i hit the edge on my 1k, i can feel when i flipped the burr on my polishing stones without touching the edge ... on diamond plates i can't.
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I can understand what you mean now. I have DMT Dia-folds and the 1200 EF is on the other side of the 8K EEF. So you're saying you're not supposed to use it next? I don't get why they would put them together like that. I just called DMT and they said to sharpen EF 1200 then EEF 8000 next. Just so people know what I put in BOLD - that's not correct. Just saying. :)
 
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pwet said:
what i mean : take a proper bevel finished with EF dmt, then take it to the EEF, you'll never get rid of the EF scratch pattern in a 1/2 dozen of strokes. take the same bevel on a decent 8k japanese waterstone and you'll get a much more polished bevel and a more refined edge as well. that's what i mean.

i can jump from 1k shapton pro to 8k chocera no problem, dmt advise not to do the same with 1200 EF to 8K EEF

and i hate the feel of a diamond stone. waterstone provide more informations , i can feel when i hit the edge on my 1k, i can feel when i flipped the burr on my polishing stones without touching the edge ... on diamond plates i can't.
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That would actually make sense given that knifenut says you have to almost "float" the knife on the diamonds, and also that they cut very aggressively for their grit.

I suppose I probably want to get the waterstones to get a taste of japanese knife sharpening, without japanese knives. Though of course these modern waterstones stray pretty far from that given that you don't need to make a slurry with them(the superstones).

I would think that the upside of waterstones is that you can achieve an even finer polished edge given that they should be slower cutting(doesn't make sense that a stone could sharpen wear resistant knives faster than diamonds).
 
I'll put in a plug for Japanese water stones. They're not "better" than anything, but they do have the best "feel" of any stone I've ever tried, and that makes freehand sharpening pleasurable. If you wanted to start out with a reasonably priced one, check out the Arashiyama/Takenoko stone, variously rated at 6K or 8K. It's a middle stone, and I'll bet a nickel that if you use it once you'll use it again.
 
wsfarrell said:
I'll put in a plug for Japanese water stones. They're not "better" than anything, but they do have the best "feel" of any stone I've ever tried, and that makes freehand sharpening pleasurable. If you wanted to start out with a reasonably priced one, check out the Arashiyama/Takenoko stone, variously rated at 6K or 8K. It's a middle stone, and I'll bet a nickel that if you use it once you'll use it again.
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Well that's a safe bet at 6 - 8k! You'd be at it forever up against a good hard batch of S30V. I'm kidding...... couldn't resist ;) :D :D

As far as the OP Noctis3880 - you've got enough equipment there to sharpen your knives until they wear out or you do 1st! :)
 
cziv, I know you were kidding, but 6k-8k in a water stone cuts a lot faster than people might think. The Japanese specialize in super-thin, super-hard steel in many of their knives, like rockwell 62, 63. A Naniwa 150 or Beston 500 would work fine with S30V, but diamonds would indeed be faster. I was suggesting a single stone that the OP might want to try just to get a feel for water stones.
 
to cziv

I've been told to use the 6 micron compound inbetween by a retailler who heard it from dmt.

Andjapanese wateestones will cut d2 s30v cowry x etc just fine ... Just use the right grit for the task. i sharpen D2 @ 64hrc quite often and it doesnt need to got coarser than 1000 except for reprofiling
 
I like the ones that act like multiple grits depending on the slurry build up, as you don't have to switch stones as often. Though it should also be a reasonable price range in order to take full advantage of that. Combine the two and I would think that it would be very forgiving to make some big jumps in grits.

I figure I could start backwards with a 8000-12000 grit Kitayama stone for $70 and an Arashiyama 6000 grit stone for $60. I figure I can start off with the DMT XC, C, and Fine to set the angle and raise a burr and simply move to the waterstones from that point.
 
pwet said:
to cziv

I've been told to use the 6 micron compound inbetween by a retailler who heard it from dmt.

Andjapanese wateestones will cut d2 s30v cowry x etc just fine ... Just use the right grit for the task. i sharpen D2 @ 64hrc quite often and it doesnt need to got coarser than 1000 except for reprofiling
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God bless you guys and your waterstones. They're just a little sloppy looking from the videos I watched of guys sharpening over the tops of wash basins and sinks. I have no idea as I'm sticking with my DMT products. Maybe that will change when the little chips don't work so good any longer??

I did call DMT, since their toll free customer service # is right on my computer, to make sure that xx-fine follows x-fine. You threw me a curveball in that post. The rep said that's the correct order. A lot of retailers are full of sh*t, I know, I'm an internet retailer and look at me! :D
 
All this talk of buying new equipment, combined with the mention of Arashiyama water stones, has got me in the mood to GO to the mines north of Arashiyama again and see if I can get some good deals on odd sized chunks. Although most of the larger commercial mines have shut down there are still several family-owned places in the mountains that maintain small retail shops at the mine face. That part of Kyoto is only about 90-120 minutes from me by motorcycle and makes for a nice ride in the mountains. :thumbup:

In past years I've been able to score some nice stone for very low cost because the stones either have structural defects such as a crack on one side, or really oddly shaped pieces that wouldn't normally be sold by knife shops or DIY centers, but work fine for small folders. Of course, if I bring home more sharpening stones my wife will make me sleep on the couch... which actually isn't too bad as we, like most people in Japan, normally sleep on the floor!
The couch could be comfortable! :D

Stitchawl
 
and they told you it made sense to progress from 12 microns to 3 then 6 then 3 then 1 ???

nice so.

i don't want to turn this into an argument too. it just doesn't make sense to me. i know the micron paste one hardwood won't exactly act like 6 micron as it's somewhat embeded in the wood but i still doubt.


and for the diamond vs waterstone thing for me it's more of personal preference issue. i've been using japanese waterstone for years as i've trained in a restaurant where my chef de partie was japanese. i learned a lot and sticked to this until now. this has probably alot to do with my preferences.

imo it's like some people sharpening back and forth, some edge first, some heel to tip or tip to heel. it doesn't matter that much as long as you use what works for you ... but to know what works best one has to try everything.
 
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