Anyone else, think that an MS Stamp on a Brut de Forge blade...

ptgdvc

ptgdvc

Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
2,369
...is a little bit out of place?

Perhaps I am alone, but I think it runs contrary to the whole notion of Master Smith quality work.

Feel free to flame away.
 
This could be good.
I just made this knife and put my "JS" stamp on it. Is it as complex, demanding and representative of the knives I made to achive my JS rating?
No.
Would it pass muster for JS testing?
No.
But I made it.
And I am a JS.
If I hit a blade or piece of steel with a hammer - I'm putting my stamp on it.
Remember that "Our mission is preserving and promoting the ancient craft of forged knives............."
The mission is NOT to always make collector quality knives.

 
As an expression of artistic freedom, I think it's 100% appropriate for a master smith(or any other smith) to make what he wants to make, how he wants to make it. Obviously he/she has spent the time to learn the skills necessary to pass the MS testing process, so the skill level is not in question. There are a handful of collectors who seem to think that their views are more relevant than those of the craftsmen who are making the knives. That is true only as far as what the collector likes and is willing to spend their money on......not to attempt to dictate to the makers how they should make knives. Imagine a collector of fine wildlife art trying to tell Robert Bateman that he should be doing a different style of painting.:thumbdn:

Also, it is not so easy to make a knife with a good forged finish and still get things clean and true.......certainly no easier than any other style finish. There may be some who use "brute finish" as a way to hide flaws, but you are not too likely to find that with MS level work.

There's my $.02

Darcy
 
Speaking as a long time knife enthusiast (to put it mildly), user, and somewhat of a collector (I haven't figured that part out yet) I happen to love brute de forge done right. As Don mentioned above, it takes skill to do it right and it seems pretty clear when it's done by someone without the experience of a JS or MS. For me, the JS or MS stamp gives me the confidence that the knife is a complete package with thorough attention to detail - from design, to build, to that final hair shaving edge. Mike
 
Like Don said, having a forge finish left on a blade is more difficult. It shows a higher skill level by requiring the blade is "right" off of the anvil...no fixing things with a grinder. Anyone can forge an irregular shaped object and go to the grinder to basically reshape it. That blade may be forged, but it's not necessary forged to shape in my opinion.

So, yes the stamp is certainly appropriate.

Tad
 
I do not believe that the OP indicated that his opinions are more relevant than those of the craftsmen who are making the knives, or attempted to dictate to the makers how they should make knives.

He simply indicated that in his personal opinion that it looks out of place to him and wondered if anyone else thinks that.

I will go further. I think so called Brut de Forge looks out of place on any quality handmade knife, period. JS, MS, BS or no S. And I could not care less how difficult it is to do or not. It would probably be difficult to make a knife standing on one leg, blindfolded, and with one arm tied behind your back. But if the end product is unattractive, that is all I am going to care about.

And to be clear, I am not attempting to dictate to any maker (other than a maker I have placed an order with) how they should make their knives. That is ridiculous. Of course every maker is totally free to make anything they want. How could I stop them even if I wanted to? :confused:

But I am also fee to have an opinion about what they make, and to express that opinion. And I definitely do NOT think my opinion on this is more relevant or better than anyone else's. It is just MY opinion. Variety is the spice of life. So DSFDF. But no Brut de Forge for me. And I am sure I am not alone.

Don Hanson III said:
It actually take more skill to do a burt de forge and have it look 'right'...
Click to expand...

I do not believe I have ever seen any Brut de Forge that looked "right" to me. But unless there is some Brut de Forge Bible that explains what is right and what is wrong, I am guessing that there are a lot of different opinions out there on when Brut de Forge looks "right," too.
 
I think the MS stamp should go on all things forged. Its not easy to earn that damn thing.
 
What does Brute de Forge mean?
I have seen the term evolve and change over time. Somehow or another, it seems that it has come to mean anything with forge scale left on it. And I am in complete disagreement with that.
Forge scale left on a knife is more a remnant of forge atmosphere than any type of forging function when the definition of the word forge means - to shape.
So, when we use the term Brute de Forge here are we meaning simply forge scale, or rough forging left as-is?

This is what comes to mind when I hear the phrase - Brute de Forge.
(And if Joe wants to put MS on a knife like that, it's fine by me.)

 
Last edited:
I agree that if a smith forged it it should carry his makers mark and rank mark. Forging to shape is not an easy task to keep all things in the proper place and proportions.

That being said preferences and opinions are expected to vary and I for one welcome that. If we all had the same tastes and preferences this great forum would not be what it is. The information shared and the skill involved to craft these varied and wonderful knives would be such a small and boring world.

Chris
 
I associate the MS accreditation with the knife maker, not the knife.
If a maker's gone through the trouble of earning the stamp, my view is they've earned the right to apply that stamp to every knife they make.
 
^^^ THAT'S the Peter I know! Asking the hard questions. He's a hard 'Senator', Mr Gill. :thumbup:

Simplest of terms for me, Lorien nailed it:
I associate the MS accreditation with the knife maker, not the knife.
Click to expand...

However, it's a valid question (even though provocative) with a foundation which causes us to think.

Here's my visual entry on this matter:

orig.jpg


I'd wished he'd have planted his earned MS rank.

Good thread.

Coop
 
Hadn't acquired a brut de forge till Jimmy Fikes sent me one of his to chop and cut with,
sadly it had to go back.
Thanks again, Jimmy, I appreciate the chance to get to use it.

large.jpg
large.jpg


Had the opportunity to pick up one of the Paranee/Knight brut de forge Fighters though
and am very well pleased with it and Paul's sheath set-up.

large.jpg


Doug
 
ptgdvc said:
I think it runs contrary to the whole notion of Master Smith quality work.
Click to expand...

All of my forged blades are forge finished (as Karl pointed out, brut de forge seems to be a somewhat variable term that can mean forge finished or Joe Keeslar's particular style), so I'm sure my tastes are immediately evident. :)

Also, I am not a member of the ABS, and a lot of my work is aimed in a very different direction, though I don't hold any animosity toward the society, and have nothing but respect for the skill of those with their MS and JS stamps. I know I'll personally probably never meet the requirements to be a Mastersmith, but that's ok by me. I'm aimed in a different direction.

That said, I think that the notion that forge finish or brut de forge is necessarily of lesser quality is wrong. It can be; so can a mirror finished blade. And I don't think that once you attain your MS status (with a lot of work and dedication) that it means you have to make your knives a certain way.

The whole notion reminds me of an art professor I had in college who declared that he was considering banning the use of flat black paint because it limited creativity. There were about three students building art bike projects inspired by motorcycles and hot rods, and he didn't agree with their taste. In this case "brut de forge" doesn't meet your taste, so an MS shouldn't make it.

Frankly, in my taste a lot of ABS knives look too much alike as is. Just looking at pictures of the MS quillion daggers (without getting to examine them up close), the biggest difference between a lot of them seems to be whether they went with a black handle or a white one. Rodrigo Sfreddo and Samuel Lurquin's quillion daggers are two that stand out from the crowd, and I love both knives. I'm looking forward to seeing what Mardi Meshejian comes up with when he goes for his MS stamp. :) That doesn't mean I don't look at ABS knives; I take 'em individually, and some get skipped over pretty quickly and some get drooled over, as I'm sure happens to my work as well.

One of the things I like about custom knives is that they can be approached from so many different directions. Same thing with one of my other interests: custom cars.

Some like high-end show cars.



Some like lots of carbon fiber.



Some like rat rods.



With some aggression to them. :cool:



Sometimes there's no accounting for taste. :D



So I'd say that if forge finish/brut de forge blades aren't your style, don't look at them or spend money on them. But don't think that it is necessarily inferior, or that a Mastersmith shouldn't be proud to put his stamp to it.
 
Depends on how it's done.....On some pieces, there's a clear/deliberate pattern evident
within the "Brut de Forge" area, and can look quite good. .....Fogg...Foster......On others,
not so good.
 
I think of Brute de Forge as look... and its part of the finishing process.

You either see it or you don't.

As for the stamp, I don't care if its on the knife or not, but the neat script letters might look funny with the brute finish. Who knows.

I think as part of paying high dollar you might want the finish as clean as possible, so I keep these in the realm of users (very nice ones).
 
I think that if anything, a JS or MS stamp on a brute de forge style knife says 'this look is intentional and this stamp is so you know I can also do really high end collector grade stuff if I want'.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top