Anyone else, think that an MS Stamp on a Brut de Forge blade...

Well it is the American BLADESMITH society. I second what Don said, to have clean smooth bevels or even flats directly off the anvil shows far more skill with a hammer than something shiny. You also have to get your bevel grinds right the first time since there's no thinning the ricasso once it's left the forge. It's an interesting question to come up since there's been a discussion of the flip side...can you mark your stock removal knives with your rating stamp? I say Lorien has the right thought. My 0.02 worth is that you shouldn't mark a knife that doesn't have the level of craftsmanship in it that the mark signifies. I don't see that forge texture sways it one way or another, it's either there or it isn't. Shiny doesn't necessarily mean well done and shoddy work doesn't really hide that well under firescale.

-Haley
 
If the master smith mark applies to man not knife, then it can be applied to any knife made by the maker. Forging is one part of the process. In other professions, a person still uses the designation PhD even when they have long since left the specific area of expertice they were initially trained for. Like a PhD, the MS mark means not just a body of knowledge and skill, but the ability to synthesize new things of similar rigorous quality. It denigrates the concept of MS to apply it to only specific knife styles and construction. That concept will lead the MS path down the road of imitation and mediocrity.
 
Like this?

1432472475.jpg
 
Storm Crow said:
Click to expand...

LOVE that Monkeemobile! LOL!

Scurvy092 said:
I think that if anything, a JS or MS stamp on a brute de forge style knife says 'this look is intentional and this stamp is so you know I can also do really high end collector grade stuff if I want'.
Click to expand...

Love that post! LOL!

brownshoe said:
If the master smith mark applies to man not knife, then it can be applied to any knife made by the maker. Forging is one part of the process. In other professions, a person still uses the designation PhD even when they have long since left the specific area of expertice they were initially trained for. Like a PhD, the MS mark means not just a body of knowledge and skill, but the ability to synthesize new things of similar rigorous quality. It denigrates the concept of MS to apply it to only specific knife styles and construction. That concept will lead the MS path down the road of imitation and mediocrity.
Click to expand...

Any knife? Does that include non-forged knives? Stock removal, CDC blades, etc?

I guess whatever the ABS says is fine. But, I would love to hear if anyone knows if they have any kind of rule about that, so there is transparency and the buying public can be informed?
 
The way that I look at it is quite simple. Anyone who has earned an M.S. stamp has earned the right to put that stamp on any knife (or style of knife) that he/she makes. It's kind of like putting PHD or MD behind your name.

Gary
 
There is a big difference between the style of something and the quality of something. If I attempted a brut De forge vs a master the difference would be outrageous. From a different perspective, if you take an osage selfbows made by a master Bowyer vs someone who only had the basics. The bows may look identical until you string and shoot them, then the quality of the masters bow will be evident. As another example, a doctor calls himself a doctor whether he is wiping a snotty noise or performing brain surgery.
 
It is my understanding that the MS or JS stamp is supposed be used only on blades that the maker has actually forged, e.g. not stock removal.

If I am correct, Brut de Forge knives would qualify for the stamp if the maker chose to use it.

I too am not a great fan of Brut de Forge blades, but I can see what Don means about it taking a lot of skill to make them look "right".
 
Last edited:
Gary Mulkey said:
The way that I look at it is quite simple. Anyone who has earned an M.S. stamp has earned the right to put that stamp on any knife (or style of knife) that he/she makes. It's kind of like putting PHD or MD behind your name.

Gary
Click to expand...

Just like watching Indy right now with Dr. Jerry Punch commentating.
 
I always thought a JS or MS was a honor and if I had that stamp I will let the end user know he has a special piece . As far as what a Brute de Forge knife is I was under the impression that it would have very little grinding done to it and put together with a old world style .. more hand crafted less is more kind of thing.
 
There is serious skill involved in forging that closely to shape. The stamp absolutely belongs, IMO. Arguably even more so than on a pretty damascus blade that is not forged to shape, but essentially ground as a stock removal piece from a forged billet.
 
Jim is right, you can only put your hallmark stamp on a forged blade.
 
The stamps can't just go on any knife.

As far as the technicality of usage from the ABS -
Article I, Section 3, subsections A, B, and C of our ABS Bylaws -
(I deleted irrelevant text)
A...........
B..........
C...........blades that are not forged by the bladesmiths shall NOT bear the MS or JS stamp or any hallmark of the Society.

So, the requirement is that the blade be forged. Doesn't say it has to be representative of quality or beauty. It just has to be forged.
 
Some good commentary, and a good thing to know about the stamps only being applicable on forged blades. I like RogerP's comment; a lot of forged knives have as much grinding done to them as a straight-out stock removal. Why would one that actually acknowledges the forging process not be worthy of a Mastersmith stamp?

Scurvy's comment about intentionality is a great one. A lot of crappy and/or beginner knives have forge finishes and try to get away with it because they are "rustic". That's probably where some of the dislike comes from. Going back to the custom car analogy, there's a lot of dislike for rat rods because there are a lot of poorly built, badly designed heaps in that category. There are also a lot of well-done builds done by guys who don't trailer their cars to a show.

A Mastersmith stamp should say that they meant it to look like it does, or at least knew how to work with what was going on to take advantage of any happy accidents. I don't think that Gerhard Wieland has his MS stamp, but he's done a couple of knives recently with forge finished fullers that show in their texture a mastery of forging tools and processes. It's obvious that it looks like that because he meant it to.

The Virginian - See, and I think the Monkeemobile is a terrible waste of a GTO. :) I still admire the skill of George Barris for building it.
 
Maybe it has very little to do with the discussion, maybe much; in my career (defense aero engineering) experience, those who demand "PhD" with their name have been pretty mediocre scientists, those (doctorates) who go by their first, nickname, given name (even on office placards) are the invaluable geniuses.

It's not about the label; it's about the designer, the maker, and the item itself.

Is a smiths skills limited to the forge? Is a smith required to put credentials on work performed?
 
I believe that most smiths who undergo the path of ABS do it for the sake of self improvement, and to be around a lot of friends!!
When they earn the MS stamp is beacuse they are masters of the art, then is only their matter of choice what finish to apply to the blade....Don't think Impressionists couldn't do a photo-like painting, it doesn't make a Van Gogh painting less beautiful and valuable.
 
From the American Bladesmith Society webpage:

“In order for an Apprentice Smith to earn the rating of Journeyman Smith in the American Bladesmith Society, he or she must first pass a pre-determined set of tests that measure his or her ability to make a knife that will not only perform to a remarkable level, but will exhibit a level of fit, finish and design that is among the best in the world.”

To earn the ABS JS stamp a knife maker first has to pass a performance test and then has to submit 5 knives to a judging panel.

These are the JS requirements:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=pages&id=172

“In order for a Journeyman Smith to earn the rating of Master Smith in the American Bladesmith Society, he or she must first pass a pre-determined set of tests that measure his or her ability to make a knife that will not only perform to a remarkable level, but will exhibit a level of fit, finish and design that is among the best in the world.”

To earn the ABS MS stamp a knife maker has to pass a performance test with a Damascus knife with a minimum of 300 layers. He then has to submit 5 knives for judging including a Damascus Quillon Dagger which would demonstrate a high level of skill.

These are the MS requirements:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=pages&id=178

There are many great knife makers out there who for various reasons do not have ABS ratings, but do make exceptional knives.

In my experience, if a knife maker has gone through the time and trouble to achieve either a JS or MS rating, I think that they have demonstrated their ability to make superior knives.

“Brut de Forge” is a style of knife finish. It takes skill to forge a knife close to its final shape and not use a grinder. I think that most American Bladesmith Society makers would have that level of skill, but like any occupation, some makers have more artistry than others.

Jim Treacy
 
I think we all understand and agree, that once a maker has obtained their MS stamp, they may put it on any forged blade they make.

It is indeed simply a commemoration of one moment in time, when five knives were judged by the ABS panel to have made the grade. As they said in investment disclaimers, "Past performance does not guarantee future performance". It is the responsibility of the collector to decide if the the build quality of each individual knife meets their own standards.

As the esteemed Don Hanson III, MS has pointed out, a properly executed Brut de Forge blade requires considerable skill.

I am curious to know whether such a blade is allowed to be submitted for either a JS or MS test?

If allowed, has one ever been submitted? If not allowed, why not?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top