Anyone know why Spyderco has a policy of not releasing the RHC #'s of their knives?

C

contegobill

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Jan 4, 2015
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Purchased a Spyderco Gayle Bradley 134CF with a M4 blade not long ago, and I'm very happy with it.
I wrote Spyderco inquiring as to the angle of the blade and the RHC as well.
They replied the angle is about 17 degrees, and they "do not release the Rockwell numbers".
Well they did make the knife and if they don't want to publish the hardness rating, I guess that's their business and they have the right not to divulge that info. I just don't understand the thinking, seeing as how Benchmade freely publishes those numbers and I did write ZT with the same question regarding a ZT 0801BW I bought and like a lot, they got back to me with 20-22 degrees and their Elmax runs between 58-62, and I thanked them for the info.
It's not a big deal, the M4 is probably in the range of 62-64 it just would have been nice not to feel like I need a NSA clearance or something to hear the answer from them.
If anyone knows whats up please let me know.
Happy Honing
 
Sal has commented on it a number of times, here is a thread in the Spyderco forum on the topic and a quote from Mr. Glesser: http://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60533

It's something that we stopped doing a long time ago. There are many reasons, many of which were posted here.

I believe that to many, the Rc of a steel is some type of absolute that they can uses to make decisions with. More often than not, most do not understand Rc, how variations work, how different steels respond better to different hardnesses, or many think that the harder the steel the better.

Posting the Rc invites argument. "I think it should be xxx", "Why didn't you xxx?", "So and so says abc", etc. etc.

We generally stay within a point of the hardness that Eric and I select for a steel. Closer than most. This is based on info provided by the foundry and our in house testing.

Hope that helps.

sal
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contegobill said:
Purchased a Spyderco Gayle Bradley 134CF with a M4 blade not long ago, and I'm very happy with it.
I wrote Spyderco inquiring as to the angle of the blade and the RHC as well.
They replied the angle is about 17 degrees, and they "do not release the Rockwell numbers".
Well they did make the knife and if they don't want to publish the hardness rating, I guess that's their business and they have the right not to divulge that info. I just don't understand the thinking, seeing as how Benchmade freely publishes those numbers and I did write ZT with the same question regarding a ZT 0801BW I bought and like a lot, they got back to me with 20-22 degrees and their Elmax runs between 58-62, and I thanked them for the info.
It's not a big deal, the M4 is probably in the range of 62-64 it just would have been nice not to feel like I need a NSA clearance or something to hear the answer from them.
If anyone knows whats up please let me know.
Happy Honing
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Dude, for Elmax that's a pretty freaking big span. If you know about something, anything about hardening steels you can see how ridiculous it is to even quote that kind of span. That's the same difference as it being somewhere between 56 and 60. Most people would be happy with 60, but if they got an Elmax blade blade at 56 rc, there's going the an unhappy customer that would post all the BS all over the forums, kind of like when ZT ran their S110V at 59 instead of 63+. What's funny about that is that if the steel is treated with tight quality controls, you probably won't see a genuinely noticable difference in a specifc steel run 4 points softer. You would see a difference if they just blew the heat treat regardless of the hardness. Spyderco is pretty well known for putting out quality steels with quality heat treatments and if they somehow blow it, they'll be the first to admit it and make it right. ZT is pretty well known for playing off of customers' ignorance and ability to simply play into hype, which Rockwell hardness generally is. Hype. Now, if you know the person does their heat treats right and they quote a target of 61 and the end result is 60, you'll still be happy, but it'll open up complaints from people who are hard to please. It's easier to just say "look, we tested extensively, we believe you'll be happy, there's no hype here, call us if you're unhappy" than to quote a given hardness and then hear all the complaints when either 1) you didn't hit the target, 2) your target isn't what some people deem worthy, or 3) try to explain the finer points of steel hardening and why exact hardness is secondary to quality heat treat protocols.

I can imagine QTRMSTR knives saying something like "yeah buddy, we'll give you the hardness, it's somewhere between 49 and 62 hrc."
 
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Sal has stated many, many, many times in the past.... Knives are hand sharpened, so the angles can vary. What I've seen in owning over 130 Spyderco knives, it carries between zero (Bushcrafter)-30-40 degrees. Some threads where Sal has posted in he has stated the "target" hardness of blades. Target hardness indicates what they are shooting for, and it is usually a range. Most if not all companies will give you a range between 2 digits. If companies got all specific with this information, imagine the guy that decides to have an on the spot aneurysm because it was off by a half point or 2 degrees. It's happened before. If you participate in the community long enough you will learn these things simply by reading the posts.
 
Here on the Spyderco subforum and on Spyderco's website forum, I've seen Sal get asked for HRC on various models dozens of times over the years and he provides it. You can TRY that.

OR...

HRC on the Gayle Bradley has been discussed before here MULTIPLE times and has already been provided. Maybe... use the search function if it is that important for you to know.

Why they don't readily publish it has been discussed also.
 
I can see now how the subject of claimed RHC is one best left alone.
Seems that it brings out the wrinkles in the thinnest of skins and ignites the flames of loyalty in the hearts of followers of various brands.
Actually, dude, I do understand the relevance of the heat treating process quality in various steel and how that might vary in different blades of varying thickness, purpose, etc. thats why I really didn't take offence or think it odd ZT would respond as they did nor would have minded if Spyderco would have had a similar response.
As I said I can now see why this subject is one best left alone.
 
contegobill said:
I did write ZT with the same question regarding a ZT 0801BW I bought and like a lot, they got back to me with 20-22 degrees and their Elmax runs between 58-62, and I thanked them for the info.Happy Honing
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"between 58-62"

Are you serious? That's pretty much a laughable joke of a "answer":rolleyes:..if you know anything about how the hardness scale works you will know there is a huge difference between a 58 and a 62 rating..just one point makes a big difference..the harness scale is not linear..
 
The Rockwell rating doesn't tell much. The microstructure is what's important. Rockwell testing provides a quick test for whether or not a particular blade is more or less in the right hardness range for a given heat treatment protocol. Just because a blade is a certain hardness doesn't mean the microstructure is ideal. The microstructure is everything. Anyone interested in learning more should pick up a metallurgy textbook.

The Spyderco knives I own and use perform well for what I use them to do. Sal is a stand up guy. He's respected for many reasons, but chief among them is his honesty and candor. Too many people think they're experts on knives/steel/whatever, when they aren't. Lots of knives are purchased and sit in safes or drawers without ever seeing use. Many people buy knives with no intention of using them ever. From what I've read and seen Spyderco does a lot of testing. They fix mistakes if they happen, which nowadays is mind blowing.

Anyway, their policy is their policy. I see why they have it. If you ask on their forums there's a good chance Sal or someone will tell you what the hardness range is. If not, use the knife and enjoy it.
 
I think Sal knows way more about it than all us and should let him do his thing. Relax guys and go cut something with your spydie!!
 
You can buy your own Rockwell Hardness Tester for about $800+ if you really needed these numbers for any particular reason.
 
You can also send it to get it tested if it's that important.
Nothing is better than the hand of experience, Spyderco and others through their experience with the general public do an outstanding job producing quality, reliable knives that will serve even the inexperienced knife nut. If you truly want a knife steel at it's maximum performance, then a custom specific to your needs is the way to go.
 
I doubt that "Sal" set out to become a knife god by making mediocre FRN handle knives but he seems to have achieved that status.
I'm just not one of his disciples.
 
contegobill said:
I doubt that "Sal" set out to become a knife god by making mediocre FRN handle knives but he seems to have achieved that status.
I'm just not one of his disciples.
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I'm not sure I like the implications of your last line, but your intent is not what is being discussed here. While we all might like more information about Spyderco knives, or at least certain knives, IMO Sal is under absolutely zero obligation to provide RHCs to the general public. If the general public is not satisfied with him withholding that information, then they may choose to take their money elsewhere until Sal changes his mind. But to provide it or not is a business decision that only Sal is really qualified to make. Until we walk in his shoes, who are we to judge? Frankly, that he even bothered to respond to the question "Why doesn't Spyderco provide RHCs?" tells me that he is more concerned about his customers than 99% of the private sector leaders in the world." Spyderco offers an excellent product at a fair price with very good customer service. Life may not be perfect, but Sal and Spyderco are good enough that I routinely carry two of their knives on me all the time. So if you trust their knives, then why not trust him and the decisions he makes even if you don't necessarily agree?
 
contegobill said:
I doubt that "Sal" set out to become a knife god by making mediocre FRN handle knives but he seems to have achieved that status.
I'm just not one of his disciples.
Click to expand...

Easy does it newbie. If this is the sort of attitude you plan on establishing here, your stay is going to be mighty short.
 
Are you saying my ability to express an opinion on this site is limited to my opinion aligning with your devotion to Spyderco and Sal?
I have a number of Spydercos and I am awaiting the pre-ordered arrival of the GB 134-2, but the quality of my latest purchases, the Native 5 and Stretch with their FRN handles and limited liners or none at all leave me wondering if the quest for cost savings will leave me disappointed with the 134-2 when and if it ever arrives.
If criticism is seen as blasphemy on this site it bothers me not if my "stay is short" you can have your own thoughts I certainly have mine.
I have a greater number of those knives made in Oregon City Or and I've not been disappointed with one of them.
You want to guess who I'll be sharing my money with in the future?
 
contegobill said:
Are you saying my ability to express an opinion on this site is limited to my opinion aligning with your devotion to Spyderco and Sal?
I have a number of Spydercos and I am awaiting the pre-ordered arrival of the GB 134-2, but the quality of my latest purchases, the Native 5 and Stretch with their FRN handles and limited liners or none at all leave me wondering if the quest for cost savings will leave me disappointed with the 134-2 when and if it ever arrives.
If criticism is seen as blasphemy on this site it bothers me not if my "stay is short" you can have your own thoughts I certainly have mine.
I have a greater number of those knives made in Oregon City Or and I've not been disappointed with one of them.
You want to guess who I'll be sharing my money with in the future?
Click to expand...

Listen, You can express your opinion when it is worded as such, rather than some sort of a back handed compliment or such. Devotion has not thing to do with it, it's a concept called respect, apparently you have not had many run ins with it from your short history here. Feel free to express away, keep it constructive and on topic. Being disrespectful and obnoxious doesn't get anyone far anyplace. As far what you buy with your money, that is entirely your business. It's cute how you try and write it up like some sort of passive aggressive threat of sorts. Adorable.
 
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