Anyone out there watching HBO's "Generation Kill"?

This post may put a damper on things but it needs to be said. I believe it is too soon for these movies about this conflict when based this closely on fact. Although we are fellow Marine Gold Star parents with Mike and Molly Morel, Capt Brent Morel's wonderful parents, we have not discussed this video. I cannot say how it will be for them to watch but my take is that it is not entertainment - at least not for a generation. Brent is an inspiration not a source of discussion on dialogue.

A little over 7 months after Brent gave his life for his brother Marines, my son Sgt Byron Norwood made a similar sacrifice in the "Hell House" in Fallujah where the famous photo was taken of SgtMaj (current rank) Brad Kasal being helped out while still holding his Beretta. Byron led one of the rescue attempts in that house shortly after Brad was hit and was ultimately the only Marine who died in the rescue. All our guys were extracted and all the enemy (Chechens, by the way) were killed. Bing West's book No True Glory is supposedly being made into a movie and our family passionately hates the thought.

These stories of heroic sacrifice should be told but it is not necessary for someone to act out and film the deaths for the entertainment of others. There are plenty of ways to inspire those who will consider serving their country without every d___ thing having to "sell".

Every Marine in my life truly understands Semper Fidelis and these movies are not that.

Bill Norwood
 
Mr. Norwood,

As much as it must pain you to be reminded of it, I have to thank you for raising a man who would fight and give his life not only for his brother Marines, but for all of us.

That said, I can understand your perspective. I, too, think it is too soon to create really viable art about this war. I actually responded with that exact opinion when asked in '02 if I could write about 9/11. It takes time to realize the larger implications of any event, and moreso when we're dealing with events that are so imperative. I have refrained from writing about 9/11 and have also refrained from watching movies about the events.

The truth is that there are many reason for my viewing this series: I know of, and respect the writers of the teleplays, and I'm interested in the events. More than that, though, I'm interested in seeing if this small piece of the greater story can be told without the sometimes obviously biased perspectives we often have gotten from people like Stanley Kubrick, Oliver Stone and others. I guess you could say I'm looking at it from a critic's perspective

This is a very serious topic which WILL have long term ramifications we can not have yet begun to understand, however it may be that men and women with the practiced eyes of serious, honest observers (some of whom are truly visionaries) can elucidate what we should expect in the future.

Another thing I often have to force myself to remember is that the ways/speed in which information is disseminated has changed dramatically over the past 30 years. We know things more quickly these days, and we have the technology in our hands to be able to recreate stories almost instantly. This creates an instantaneous exploration which may seem at odds with the emotional significance of the events being explored, but can also lead to some insights we might not want to (or be able to afford) wait(ing) 30 years to learn.

Emotional distance is important. I teach my students that consistently. However I am (to this point) equating this work with journalism. I see this as no different from articles from embedded writers, especially considering that the series is based on the work of the Journalist Evan Wright who was indeed embedded with the 1st Recon Battalian in '03.

Hopefully the show will turn out to be something different from what we have come to expect from the media. At the very least I feel we can trust HBO for that considering that they don't have any corporate sponsorship. They tend to make the things they think are important, like the disturbing but important "Bagdhad E.R." series.

Regardless of any of that, though, I can still see how the loved ones of these young men would not want to have to relive their losses again so soon. Especially so that others could be "entertained." I hope you are not let down.

Thank you for sharing with us.

Jason
 
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mr. norwood,

thank you for the post. and i would also like to "second" everything gatman said.

though there is entertainment value to everything on television or in cinema, rest assured i do not take such topics lightly.

i had been in law enforcement for nearly three years when 9/11 took place. it certainly hit home for me. just as you consider all military personnel to be brethren, so to it is in the law enforcement community. it was quite some time before i could watch anything about the events other than news coverage. only recently have i seen the movie about the flight that never reached its intended target, the title escapes me (flight 93?), and ive only watched portions of "world trade center".

last weekend my girlfriend and i visited forest lawn cemetary in glendale, ca. they have a museum of sorts, with a large plaque in memory of those who died. underneath are binders with dedications to everyone who died that day. i was unable to look at the binders, too choked up to absorb the information inside. and i just stood and stared at the memorial for several minutes.

different people will have different reactions to "generation kill". with all the talk of pulling out the troops so trendy to talk about now, i truly believe it is important to understand not only what has been sacraficed, but why the sacrafices were made, and who those marines are. an honest depiction from the perspectives of the front line personnel makes it real for those of us on the sidelines. its not just news footage, or some article in the l.a. times, or a statistical analysis.

it makes me sad that so many give their lives, but i am proud that so many are willing to do so for me, for all of us.
 
I still have not seen--and really have no interest in seing--the Hollywood 9/11 productions. They just seem like attempts to capitalize on the our sadness and sympathy.

This past Spring, however, I was in Manhattan for a week. I really hadn't made any plans to visit ground zero, but my wife and I ended up hooking up with my roommate from our freshman year of college, and after meandering much of the financial district we wandered over to where their apartment is and suddenly I found myself standing at the edge of that huge crater in the ground. It was certainly an eery experience. There were multiple small groups standing around, but no one would speak above a whisper. I guess the ambience of the place just demanded quietude.

I still won't write about it. We still haven't seen an end to the changes that have taken place in America and its people...we won't for awhile.
 
the correct title is "united 93".

it plays more like a documentary, and is definitely worth your time. the nicholas cage movie may have had loftier hopes, but i found it too hollywood.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
the correct title is "united 93".

it plays more like a documentary, and is definitely worth your time. the nicholas cage movie may have had loftier hopes, but i found it too hollywood.
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Well, considering that you and I seem to be of similar mindset concerning these themes, I may check it out. Thanks.

Oh, and upon viewing episode 1 a second time today I realized there things I missed. It's pretty nuanced, and some of it can be kind of funny...mainly because of the ways these guys relate.
 
Fellow Hogs,

I and my family are grateful for your thoughts and understand the perspective better now that you have explained it so well. The only reason I felt free to make my statement last night was the maturity and thoughtfulness that seems prevelent on this forum.

We remain distrustful of the media. Think of the History Channel video "Shoorout in Fallujah" a few years ago. We would not give our consent for someone to act out Byron's death less than a year after the event so the show went on to capture the "Hell House" with no mention of the one Marine who gave his life that day. A simple footnote would have sufficed but I can tell you every Marine I talk with who was there that day was offended by the disrespect of their brother.

However, it is all becoming history and Brent, Byron and the others live honorably in the hearts of men and women like you who have written and those who serve our country. We simply must become accustomed to that. We have the pleasure of knowing and regularly visiting with the men who were there that day and love them as family.

By the way, I go by Bill. Mr. Norwood makes me look around for my Dad!

Bill
 
Well Bill,

All I have to say to that is: Impeach the Media!!!

I have a funny story about that I'll try to tell a little later. Just got my strop bat from JRE Industries and only came on here to look for some reference info. Be back after I finish dulling the edges on all my knives, like an idiot. :confused:
 
bill,

agreed on the distrust of media. i rarely watch the news, and only attemp to sift through the detritus we call the newspaper. i know there is a built in bias to anything prepared by a human being, however the l.a. times is so biased in one direction it makes me sick.

ill pick up the occassional time magazine or newsweek, but the only news channel ill consider watching is fox news.
 
Episode two just aired, and the thing that has struck me most poingnantly throughout the series so far is the ineptitude of some of the commanding officers. What the hell is wrong with Bravo 1's Captain? That guy is an absolute idiot. How in the hell does a guy like that end up in command of a company? And what's going on with Captain America? He's clearly off his rocker. Then there's Mr. Potatohead...that guy is more worried about the grooming standard than a fifteen yr old high school girl. Ridiculous. Oh...and can we tell Trombley's character is a bit of a sociopath?

Episode two was still a bit slow, but there was more action, and you can tell they're building to something. With only a seven-episode story arc, I'm expecting next episode to be a lot more intense, though this one--aside from the action--was definitely more graphic.

At this point I'm anxious for more. I'm definitely biased, being a fan of Simon/Burns' other work, but regardless, I'm hooked. Any opinions or observations? Please share.

Jason
 
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I just watched episode no. 2 as well. The action is getting better. I believe that the series is leading to something bigger also, or so I hope. I did not serve in the military, but I think the first two episodes are building on the characters and we should see them really developed in the next show.
 
Bill Norwood said:
Fellow Hogs,

I and my family are grateful for your thoughts and understand the perspective better now that you have explained it so well. The only reason I felt free to make my statement last night was the maturity and thoughtfulness that seems prevelent on this forum.

We remain distrustful of the media. Think of the History Channel video "Shoorout in Fallujah" a few years ago. We would not give our consent for someone to act out Byron's death less than a year after the event so the show went on to capture the "Hell House" with no mention of the one Marine who gave his life that day. A simple footnote would have sufficed but I can tell you every Marine I talk with who was there that day was offended by the disrespect of their brother.

However, it is all becoming history and Brent, Byron and the others live honorably in the hearts of men and women like you who have written and those who serve our country. We simply must become accustomed to that. We have the pleasure of knowing and regularly visiting with the men who were there that day and love them as family.

By the way, I go by Bill. Mr. Norwood makes me look around for my Dad!

Bill
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Bill,

I read your messages throughout this thread with mixed emotions. Families through out this country have suffered loss along with friends and other loved ones close to these Marines, Soldiers, Airmen and Sailors. Speaking from outside the box, I believe the History Channel did precisely what was requested by no mention seeing they did not have your consent. I doubt very seriously any disrespect was intended. Personally, I find any form of coverage whether factual, historic or partially of entertainment value such as HBO's Generation Kill go a long way in shedding light on the inner working of a breed apart, US Marines.

I have watched the show with great interest and have enjoyed it greatly. A direct exert from HBO on the series.....



The 7 part mini series portrays the true story of the young Marines' experience at the tip of the spear of the American invasion, as they contend with equipment shortages, incompetent commanding officers, ever revolving Rules of Engagement and an unclear strategy.

Its worth mentioning that there are no less then three Marines from this very unit working directly with HBO on the shows production.

The series also benefits greatly from the presence of two of the real-life Marines it depicts - Sgt. Eric Kocher and Cpl. Jeffrey Carisalez - who served as consultants. A third First Recon Marine, Sgt. Rudy Reyes, appears in the mini series portraying himself.


I have spoken with many other fellow Recon Marines about the series and we all feel they have done an excellent job of capturing the trials and tribulations of a combat environment, and the variety of methods Marines use to cope. War is never pretty. It also carries a great cost. I find the series to be doing an excellent job of portraying the story with honor and honesty.


My condolences for your loss.

Semper Fi

MarineCorpsSig-SanPatch.jpg
 
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Hey Blackwind,

Thanks for shedding a bit more light on this for us. The type of involvement you mention is one of the reasons I'm going out of my way to watch this series. Simon and Burns take their jobs very seriously. Matter of fact, they've both gone on record as saying that they want no part of the Hollywood machine. They care most about the subject matter, and the honesty they're able to portray it with. I admire that as a writer, teacher and viewer. Hopefully the series finishes strong.

Thanks for your service.
 
im guessing it is very similar, but after nearly 10 years in law enforcement, i can honestly say that a large percentage of supervisors (the equivalent of millitary officers) are not as competent as one would expect, or hope.

many that promote dont seem to have the field experience we would like to see at the line officer level. some are just good test takers, some are in the good graces of the upper management.

many of those that i would hope would promote, have no desire to do so. more politics, and lots more paperwork. and not crime report type paperwork, but the management type.

when one promotes, especially to lieutenant and above, they cease to be field personnel for the most part. for some this is the allure of promotion. for most this is the drawback.

when a supervisor is out of the field for the majority of their shifts, they lose the perspective of the line officer, and they become managers, and not really law enforcement (in a practical sense).

not all are like this, but enough to make it obvious.
 
As a police officer for 21 years, I tend to agree with you. Some people are promoted without "paying their dues" in the field, and it shows! " Lead from the front" is unfortunately the exception rather than the rule these days!
 
I wish that AFN was airing this series. I have heard a lot of good things about it. Maybe I will be able to watch it when it comes out on DVD.
Bill, I appreciate the sacrifice that your son and other Marines have made. I have the priviledge of working with the Marines and other branches of the military.
I understand the sentiment that people have about officers, which is why I try to not be that kind of officer. I was prior enlisted before going over to the "dark side". :) I do agree that we should lead from the front and I am appalled when I see my fellow officers not doing that. Thankfully, my commander is one of those who does lead from the front and he does an excellent job taking care of our soldiers.

Dan
 
Had my pops watch episode one yesterday before we rode out to watch The Dark Knight, and he was reminded of a bunch of idiots who were in supervisory positions during his years in the AF. Matter of fact, he just had a "going away" party at his current job to celebrate the fact that a bad supervisor was promoted to another shop. Ridiculous, isn't it?

It's the same way in the education system. That's why I stay quietly behind the closed door of my classroom.
 
thread revival.

i have come to have some conflicting opinions after watching the most recent episode, "screwby".

not regarding the quality or realism depicted, but about the individuals portrayed. specifically some of the officers, in particlar "captain america" (why is this moron carrying an ak?).

there appears to be what some would construe as misconduct taking place, ie shooting of apparantly unarmed personnel. i am aware there was a blanket change in the roe, but i also suspect that some common sense is in order. also "looting" of dead iraqi soldiers because they hopefully have a red beret seems rather inappropriate.

so my question is this: can any of the incidents portrayed result in disciplinary action for those marines participating or present?

also, i understand the desire for a realistic portrayal of actual people, but even captain america has family/friends who are probably watching. is it a disservice to allow those who care about even the goofballs to see them in such a negative fashion?
 
MORIMOTOM said:
thread revival.

i have come to have some conflicting opinions after watching the most recent episode, "screwby".

not regarding the quality or realism depicted, but about the individuals portrayed. specifically some of the officers, in particlar "captain america" (why is this moron carrying an ak?).

there appears to be what some would construe as misconduct taking place, ie shooting of apparantly unarmed personnel. i am aware there was a blanket change in the roe, but i also suspect that some common sense is in order. also "looting" of dead iraqi soldiers because they hopefully have a red beret seems rather inappropriate.

so my question is this: can any of the incidents portrayed result in disciplinary action for those marines participating or present?

also, i understand the desire for a realistic portrayal of actual people, but even captain america has family/friends who are probably watching. is it a disservice to allow those who care about even the goofballs to see them in such a negative fashion?
Click to expand...

I had a very similar reaction watching "Screwby" as well. I had my concerns about a couple of the officers prior, but in this episode Captain America and Encino Man really pull some crap. Obviously Captain America is just losing his mind, while Encino Man really is just an idiot. To call a "danger close" airstrike and then get the coordinates wrong anyway? Wow...

Then, on top of those guys being so incompetent, you've got Godfather demonstrating that to him it's more important to be approved of by his superiors than to do what's best for his boys. Another officer seeking promotion.

I hear you, Mark, and I wonder how the families of these guys feel as well. I think it's vitally important to have an honest depiction of the people, places and situations of this war, but this last episode made me think of Bill's comments earlier.

So I'll raise this question: How important is it for us to see how much incompetence takes place in the leadership of our troops? It really seems like the only straight-ahead guys in the show are the grunts.

And yes, these marines (Capt. America, Trombley, the Lt. who questioned Encino Man's orders and the Medic who did the same in an earlier episode) can all face NJP (Non Judicial Punishment) which can often lead to a loss of rank and pay-grade. It all depends on whether or not charges are pursued by the ranking officer.

Btw...for those interested, there is a glossary of marine terminology, as well as information about the weapons/gear here:

http://www.hbo.com/generationkill/

Browse/click around the site and you'll find all sorts of good info.
 
I was at Costco over the weekend and picked up a copy of the book Generation Kill. As soon as a finish the book I am currently reading (The Steel Wave by Jeff Shaara) I'll be starting in on it. I may not have HBO but figured I can read the book. It should be interesting to see how the book and the show compare. If anyone is interested I'll try to post my commments on each chapter.
 
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