Anyone out there watching HBO's "Generation Kill"?

I'mGatMan! said:
I had a very similar reaction watching "Screwby" as well. I had my concerns about a couple of the officers prior, but in this episode Captain America and Encino Man really pull some crap. Obviously Captain America is just losing his mind, while Encino Man really is just an idiot. To call a "danger close" airstrike and then get the coordinates wrong anyway? Wow...

Then, on top of those guys being so incompetent, you've got Godfather demonstrating that to him it's more important to be approved of by his superiors than to do what's best for his boys. Another officer seeking promotion.
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agreed on all points.

I hear you, Mark, and I wonder how the families of these guys feel as well. I think it's vitally important to have an honest depiction of the people, places and situations of this war, but this last episode made me think of Bill's comments earlier.
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yes, an honest depiction is important. more importantly an honest depiction of the day to day activities as provided by ground personnel such as these marines.

So I'll raise this question: How important is it for us to see how much incompetence takes place in the leadership of our troops? It really seems like the only straight-ahead guys in the show are the grunts.
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i dont know. at some level to understand what the enlisted marines are experiencing it is important to understand where their orders come from. but should the level of idiocy be portrayed with such specifics regarding the officers?

And yes, these marines (Capt. America, Trombley, the Lt. who questioned Encino Man's orders and the Medic who did the same in an earlier episode) can all face NJP (Non Judicial Punishment) which can often lead to a loss of rank and pay-grade. It all depends on whether or not charges are pursued by the ranking officer.
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could any of the officers, captain america in particular, face a criminal court martial?

is any of the material contained in the series or book discoverable as evidence?
 
those interested should also read "one bullet away", written by nathaniel fick, who is the bravo platoon 2 1st lt in generation kill.

i just realized it is the same person after looking through the link provided by gat.
 
MORIMOTOM said:
those interested should also read "one bullet away", written by nathaniel fick, who is the bravo platoon 2 1st lt in generation kill.

i just realized it is the same person after looking through the link provided by gat.
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Ya know...I have a feeling Fick was probably integral to the product Simon/Burns have created here. His character in the show seems to be one of the few guys with his head screwed on right and tight.

Mark, did he mention in his book anything about being Article 15'ed for insubordination concerning his comments toward Encino Man?

And as for your question earlier about any of these things being actionable by court martial, I'm not too sure. I remember a kid in my father's command getting article 15'ed for bouncing numerous checks on and off the base, but I don't know what the line of demarcation is. I would think it has to do with whether or not the offense is something internal or something that is publicly visible...and/or the seriousness of the offense. Seems to me that Encino Man could at the very least face NJP for calling a danger close airstrike. What is it with that guy? Mustaches and taped up windows?

On second thought, Captain America's actions are probably punishable by Court Martial, while Trombley's probably are not. Encino Man would probably face NJP for his dumb antics if it were ever pressed, but you know how it is.

Sheesh.

Anyway, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will come and chime in.

J
 
Rolling Stone published "The Killer Elite" which Generation Kill is derived from. It's an entertaining read if you are bored at a desk like me.

The character "Cpl. Person" cracks me up. All the interactions remind me of my duty days as a USMC mortarman, i.e. clueless calls for fire missions, bad and excellent officers, shitehead senior NCO's, bad/unserviceable equipment, and good times spent in rathole locations.
 
its been a while since i read fick's book, ill flip through it and see if there is anything regarding an article 15.
 
Mark...now that I've finished the show I REALLY want to read Fick's book. If you want, we can do a passaround, and I'll see if there's something in my collection you might like.

As for the show...I was left at the end with the feeling that for some of these guys the war would start when they left Iraq. It seems that for so many of them, the experiences there drilled so far into their cores that things which had been safely locked away for years started to surface from within. My clearest thought at the end was this:

How will they be able to go home and resume their lives?

I think Iceman said it best: There's nothing about home that I miss right now.

It still hasn't sunk in completely, and I think the last 30 minutes of the series was incredibly potent...

I will try to come back later/tomorrow to elucidate what I'm thinking, but for now I'll say this:

I began to be a little concerned that there wasn't an over-arching objective, i.e. plot...but now I feel like Simon/Burns accomplished exactly what they were going for. I'll elaborate when I can verbalize more articulately.

Please...share your thoughts.
 
The reporter dude cracked me up at the end. I think he wanted a hug or something. :D

What does screwby mean? I have an idea, but I asked some former...oops...I mean inactive Marines and none of them know or ever heard of it.
 
I'mGatMan! said:
Mark...now that I've finished the show I REALLY want to read Fick's book. If you want, we can do a passaround, and I'll see if there's something in my collection you might like.

As for the show...I was left at the end with the feeling that for some of these guys the war would start when they left Iraq. It seems that for so many of them, the experiences there drilled so far into their cores that things which had been safely locked away for years started to surface from within. My clearest thought at the end was this:

How will they be able to go home and resume their lives?

I think Iceman said it best: There's nothing about home that I miss right now.

It still hasn't sunk in completely, and I think the last 30 minutes of the series was incredibly potent...

I will try to come back later/tomorrow to elucidate what I'm thinking, but for now I'll say this:

I began to be a little concerned that there wasn't an over-arching objective, i.e. plot...but now I feel like Simon/Burns accomplished exactly what they were going for. I'll elaborate when I can verbalize more articulately.

Please...share your thoughts.
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I finished the book a few weeks ago. It was well written and easy to read so I went through it petty quickly.

I think you aree correct about getting on with their lives. Given the nature of the current conflict many of the Veterans of this conflict will be dealing with the aftermath for decades afterwards.

I found the method in which the invasion was conducted to be severly lacking in foresight. Granted we have the luxery of being able to look back over the last couple of years and see the results. Without hindsight the war seemed to be haphazardly fought and to much emphasis placed on getting to Baghdad and not securing the coutry as we went.

Additionally the behavour of several of the "officers" was appaling. From what I remember of my time in the Corps the kind of crap pulled by Capts America and Encino Man would not have been tolerated. The military puts a great deal of time, effort and money into creating officers. Officers are supposed to set the example and lead. Running around shooting everything that moves with an unauthorized weapon does not meet that criteria. Granted the fog of war applies in some situations and the lack of a clearly defined enemy makes the situation even more difficult. However there were times when the situation was calm and in hand and Capt A would drop in and completely blow things out of proportion. Capt As actions clearly created a situation in which his ability to command was severly compromised. An officer by law has to be obeyed yet to be true effective an officer also has to have the respect adn trust of his/her men and women. Lt Fick is a good example of what an officer should be. How Capt A and Encino Man ever got pas being 2ndLts is a mystery to me. Their fitness reports should have been marked unfit to command troops and they should have been sent off to the supply depot in Barstow to count mess kits for the rest of their careers. I agree that those two should have been relieved and brought up on charges.

I could keep on with my observations but I've gone on long enough.
 
On the whole I thought the whole series was enjoyable but I was also concerned about the level of leadership displayed but in the end you must remember it only showed one small slice of the war and that filtered through the eyes of one person.Not to say he lied or made stuff up but that while it was maybe his and a few others PERCEPTION of the truth it might not be the ACTUAL truth. One bit of trivia the Rudy character ( the buff one they picked on as being gay) was played by the actual person.
 
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Yeh, I figured out Fruity Rudy was playing himself during the last episode. I think it's actually him talking during the first part of the final credits.

As for the leadership, if you read Evan Wright's original journal piece here:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5938873/the_killer_elite/

You'll see that a lot of what was portrayed came directly from his notes, and Fick's book. It seems that there truly was some serious ineptitude during this war, and I wonder how much of that has to do with our diminished personnel due to the cutbacks in the late 90's. I remember whole squadrons being phased out and moved from base to base, as well as massive buyouts. A lot of my pops' boys ended up leaving early with chunks of money. Maybe that has something to do with the quality of leadership.

Regardless, you'd expect a battallion like 1st recon--especially with all the training they have to have just to make it onto the team--to have MUCH better leadership. I was also appalled at some of the crap that happened.

But in the end, what Ferando said makes sense: I can't take every word out of every marine's mouth as gospel. I can only do what makes the most sense strategically.

And as for Journalist's expression at the end of the show, I don't think he was looking for "a hug." I felt like he had listened to Godfather, and had judged him unworthy of his position to lead men like Colbert, Fick and Espera. I got the sense that he deemed the Lt. Col. as unfit as Encino Man and Capt. A...especially when he said that bit about the excitement of being under fire.

I still have more thinking to do...

J

Hey James...come on back and share some more. And if you'll send me the book, I'll pay shipping. Actually...let me see if I can find it used on Amazon.
 
I'm sorry, my young friend.

I haven't the time to watch much ... and I chose not to watch this.

I don't need books, TV, or movies to experience war zones. What I have seen, mostly accidentally (though I enjoyed Eastwood's recent movies), doesn't match up well with my memories. That's OK ... I think it's different for every person.

But if it makes you think, then that has to be good.
 
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