Anyone switched from Wicked Edge to Tormek?

[Twindog]

When the Wicked Edge first came out, I bought one. It was wonderful, precise and almost foolproof. And it was faster than any guided system that I have tried. I've easily spent more than $1,000 over the years to upgrade the system with various stones and accessories. But the new Gen 3 clamping system doesn't fit my thicker knives and doesn't hold my thinner blades securely.

So I was thinking of switching to a Tormek 7. It will be just as precise, but much faster. And I can use it on any knife or axe or machete. It is water cooled and can be run at very low RPMs, so I don't have to worry about ruining the temper of my edges.

Has anyone made this switch? How has it worked out?

 

[SBaker34]

Can you get as highly finished edges?

 

[Twindog]

Can you get as highly finished edges?

It seems so, but I have no experience. The basic wheel can be quickly smoothed to 1000 grit. Then you finish with the leather wheel.

There is also the option to put on a Japanese waterstone wheel, with a very fine, 4000 grit -- virtually a mirrored edge.

With the ability to create a perfect edge angle and the ability to, in essence, strop off any burr, it seems like a handy tool that can replace a whole bunch of tools that I now use. Plus, the speed would be much, much faster. But, again, I have no experience. I've just seen a lot of good comments.

 

[AFAustin]

I would likewise appreciate any comments or opinions on the Tormek, Tormek vs. WEPS, etc., especially as to sharpening small traditional blades.

Andrew

 

[pjwoolw]

I have no experience with the WE. Going to the Tormek would be like taking a giant step backwards in terms of knife sharpening. A better investment would be a good 1x42 belt sander. A bunch cheaper and much more versatile. Not that the Tormek doesn't have its place in ones arsenal. Knives are just not its strong point. Knowing what I know now there isn't anything the Tormek can do that another machine can do cheaper and faster. Just not in one unit.

 

[fvdk]

I have both the WE and the Tormek T7 with the additional SJ-250 waterstone. The Tormek is a wonderful piece of equipment but I hardly use it.
I already had a lot of experience with the WE and looking at demonstration videos of the Tormek, I thought that I could easily get comparable results but that it would be a lot faster.

It can handle larger knives very well but as it turned out (at least for me) it wasn't as easy as I thought and there was a steep learning curve to get good at it and it wasn't nearly as fast as I hoped, especially with changing the stones. It also can not handle my pocket knives (Victorinox and traditional folders) very well. The small knife jig can be used on the large blades but not on the smaller blades and the SVM-00 Small Knife Holder is no perfect solution either. That being said, the WE is not very good at these either so for those I use my KME or Lansky.

The Tormek with the additional clamps and waterstone will also be very expensive so before buying it, see if you can find an option to try it out first.

If I had to choose, I would keep the WE. Only one way to find out what works best, try them all

Frans

 

[AFAustin]

Now that's a nice array of sharpening jigs!

Frans, thanks for your comments.

Andrew

 

[Twindog]

Thanks, FVDK, that's an interesting perspective. You have a nice collection of sharpening equipment.

I can't quite tell from the photo, but it looks like you have the early clamp on the Wicked Edge. My Gen I clamp, while being a hassle to use, will clamp all my knives. The new Gen III clamp is much easier to use, but much more limited in what knives it can handle, which is why I've become disappointed with the system.

Plus, I've grown tired of reprofiling overly obtuse knife edges. The knife I'm doing now has an edge somewhere around 50 degrees inclusive and shoulders about 0.050 inches wide. It is taking a long time to reprofile to a more useful geometry, even with diamond stones.

Did the quality of the final edge off your Tormek waterstone match what you can get off the WE? For finished edges, does the leather wheel take the edge back to a high level of sharpness?

 

[REK Knives]

Thanks, FVDK, that's an interesting perspective. You have a nice collection of sharpening equipment.

I can't quite tell from the photo, but it looks like you have the early clamp on the Wicked Edge. My Gen I clamp, while being a hassle to use, will clamp all my knives. The new Gen III clamp is much easier to use, but much more limited in what knives it can handle, which is why I've become disappointed with the system.

Plus, I've grown tired of reprofiling overly obtuse knife edges. The knife I'm doing now has an edge somewhere around 50 degrees inclusive and shoulders about 0.050 inches wide. It is taking a long time to reprofile to a more useful geometry, even with diamond stones.

Did the quality of the final edge off your Tormek waterstone match what you can get off the WE? For finished edges, does the leather wheel take the edge back to a high level of sharpness?

Why not get a work sharp and use it for the heavy reprofiling then finish up on the Wicked edge to save you time?

I'm having a custom vise insert made for the gen 3...it wouldn't be too hard to have some more made I wouldn't imagine to fit different sized blades. I'll try to do a yt video after I get it.

 

[fvdk]

I can't quite tell from the photo, but it looks like you have the early clamp on the Wicked Edge.

That is correct. I started with the 1st generation WE which I later upgraded to the Gen II pro.
I looked at the Gen III clamp but did not buy it because of reported limitations like you also experienced. I am pretty happy with the old style clamp but it could certainly do with some improvements.

Did the quality of the final edge off your Tormek waterstone match what you can get off the WE? For finished edges, does the leather wheel take the edge back to a high level of sharpness?

You can definitely get a very polished edge with the Japanese waterstone but somehow I can not achieve the same ultra sharpness as I can get with the WE.

I don't like the leather wheel very much as I think it might be perfect for a final finish on an axe but it is too rough / turns too fast for ultimate edges on knives. You can also feel the bump where the leather is glued together and at 90 rpm that does not feel good. Tormek also says that there is no need for using the leather wheel if you use the waterstone.

Here is a picture of a knife that I used to practice with on the Tormek.

[/url]SRM Tormek by Frans van de Kamp, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Twindog]

Well, after a couple hours on the web, I'm even more confused. I found a couple other similar threads here on the forum that led nowhere.

Some of the Tormek company videos show knives getting extremely sharp quickly and easily. The Tormek-sharped edges can push cut notebook paper even while turning angles in the paper, push cut thin slices off a ripe tomato without holding the tomato, a la Ankerson's recent video.

Other videos show knives left pretty dull, barely able to draw cut notebook paper.

People also use different techniques, some lifting the knife to sharpen the belly (as Tormek advises), others turning (rather than lifting) the knife to try to retain the jig angle through the belly. Most people seem to freehand the stropping wheel, which seems to be to lead to uneven results, just as we see with people freehand stropping.

It is a cool system. A high-quality grinder run at optimal RPMs and water cooled to protect the edge temper. No sparks. No dust. Little noise.

I can't see how the stropping wheel, given an edge held gently at the proper angle, could not get an extremely sharp edge.

I couldn't find a single video by an independent, competent sharpener that really documents what can be achieved. One professional sharpener seemed to get good results, but he was push cutting heavy paper. And he was sharpening a thin kitchen knife.

I caught a few glints of the edge created by the 4,000-grit waterstone wheel, and it didn't leave a mirrored edge, but a pretty well polished edge.

I do have a WorkSharp that I could use to hog off most of the metal during a regrind, as Josh suggested, but the WorkSharp is too imprecise for my fine knives and I hate having to use multiple systems for sharpening.

Thanks, Franz, for sharing your experience. $635 is a lot to risk on a system that may not do what I want.

On the other hand, it may be that the Tormek just takes some time to work through the learning curve, just like every other system.

 

[pjwoolw]

In all honesty the Tormek will never give you what your looking for without the purchase of yet another machine to finish. Its a hobbiest tool, as I stated earlier, that covers allot of ground. Its best on chisels and plane irons if you want a hollow grind. But not without other resources to really get the edge your looking for. Its all part of the education and if you must try one buy used. They are all over the place for sale. For use as a knife sharpening tool how will you ever get a polished bevel if your bevel is hollow ground?

 

[fvdk]

Well, after a couple hours on the web, I'm even more confused.

I hope that I did not confuse you more

Some of the Tormek company videos show knives getting extremely sharp quickly and easily. The Tormek-sharped edges can push cut notebook paper even while turning angles in the paper, push cut thin slices off a ripe tomato without holding the tomato, a la Ankerson's recent video.
Other videos show knives left pretty dull, barely able to draw cut notebook paper.

I did a quick video with two knives that I practiced with on the Tormek. The first one is the SRM from the above photo that was finished on the waterstone and the second knife is a cheap kitchen knife that was finished on the leather wheel. The third knife is a Victorinox that was sharpened on the Lansky.

The video was made with one of my photo cameras and I usually don't do video so please excuse the quality but I hope it gives you more of an idea of the results that I get from the Tormek.

[video=youtube;B7aOuNTfllA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7aOuNTfllA&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Note that these were sharpened to practice and I think I sharpened them at 17 DPS. I certainly believe that with more practice, better knives and a lower angle, the results can be a lot better so it definitely is not a bad system but for me it was not that much faster and I prefer the more controlled results that I get with the WE.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do or tell you that might clear up your questions.

Frans

 

[Twindog]

In all honesty the Tormek will never give you what your looking for without the purchase of yet another machine to finish. Its a hobbiest tool, as I stated earlier, that covers allot of ground. Its best on chisels and plane irons if you want a hollow grind. But not without other resources to really get the edge your looking for. Its all part of the education and if you must try one buy used. They are all over the place for sale. For use as a knife sharpening tool how will you ever get a polished bevel if your bevel is hollow ground?

I do have planes and chisels that I use. I'm also getting into restoring old axes, so a gentle grinder would be nice for those. But, yes, it's just a hobby. I was satisfied with my Wicked Edge, in fact I loved it, until the new Gen III jaws and means I can't use it on half my knives. I suppose I could just go back to the troublesome Gen I clamp. Or I could make a handle-clamping system that bypasses the Gen III clamp altogether and just adapt the rest of the system to it.

I'm also reprofiling a Winkler II Belt Knife, which has thick and obtuse edge geometry, and I'm getting tired of spending hours reprofiling it.

I'm not sure what you mean by polishing a hollow-ground bevel. I convert all my edges to V edges, so it doesn't really matter.

A used machine would be ideal, if I can find one.

 

[Twindog]

I hope that I did not confuse you more



I did a quick video with two knives that I practiced with on the Tormek. The first one is the SRM from the above photo that was finished on the waterstone and the second knife is a cheap kitchen knife that was finished on the leather wheel. The third knife is a Victorinox that was sharpened on the Lansky.

The video was made with one of my photo cameras and I usually don't do video so please excuse the quality but I hope it gives you more of an idea of the results that I get from the Tormek.

[video=youtube;B7aOuNTfllA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7aOuNTfllA&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Note that these were sharpened to practice and I think I sharpened them at 17 DPS. I certainly believe that with more practice, better knives and a lower angle, the results can be a lot better so it definitely is not a bad system but for me it was not that much faster and I prefer the more controlled results that I get with the WE.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do or tell you that might clear up your questions.

Frans

Thanks for that video, Frans. All those knifes look about equally sharp. It looks like they all have a "catch" on the edge someplace. And I do appreciate the information you have provided. Pretty useful. Thank you.

I see comments from some experienced sharpeners that the Tormek doesn't give a truly refined and sharp edge, nothing on par with good bench stones or the Wicked Edge. But I can't for the life of me see why the leather stropping belt on the Tormek can't produce truly refined and sharp edges, especially with the right dressing, an angle guide and very light pressure.

 

[pjwoolw]

One can sharpen axes and such on the Tormek. But axes should be convex ground not hollow ground. A belt grinder is better suited to the task using the slack portion of the belt.

 

[fvdk]

I can't for the life of me see why the leather stropping belt on the Tormek can't produce truly refined and sharp edges, especially with the right dressing, an angle guide and very light pressure.

With the right dressing, an angle guide and very light pressure it will certainly refine and put a sharp edge on knives that are sharpened with the standard SG-250 stone but that is a 220 grit stone and even when used with the stone grader to give it a 1000 grit like surface, it is still pretty coarse. If you than follow that with a leather stropping wheel that rotates at 90 RPM it is not nearly as refined as sharpening on the WE and finishing with the ceramics followed by a very gentle stropping with the diamond pastes.

It is hard to describe in words and also just my personal opinion so perhaps your local Tormek dealer or someone nearby with a Tormek will let you try.

Frans

p.s. from the three knives in the video, the Victorinox is the sharpest and that is kind of funny if you look at the price difference between the Tormek system and the Lansky.

 

[Jason B.]

Kalamazoo 1x42 and some belts, really hard to beat. You can add leather belts and compounds for polishing or switch to a bench grinder with a leather wheel. No need for guides, they are just crutches.

 

[cjordan]

Why not get a work sharp and use it for the heavy reprofiling then finish up on the Wicked edge to save you time?

I'm having a custom vise insert made for the gen 3...it wouldn't be too hard to have some more made I wouldn't imagine to fit different sized blades. I'll try to do a yt video after I get it.

I built a jig for mine. It resembles the tormek jig, except I have two bolts on each side. This is so you can center up your blade more than you can with the Tormek jig. It works wonderful for trappers, I haven't tried it with anything smaller. I'm not for sure how to post pics or I would. It's just a prototype but it works so well I don't really see a need for building another one.

 

[pjwoolw]

I'm not sure what you mean by polishing a hollow-ground bevel. I convert all my edges to V edges, so it doesn't really matter.

My point was that the Tormek will put a hollow grind on a knifes edge. Or any edge for that matter. So its not a true v or chisel grind. Close but still slightly hollow on a knife. The larger the area sharpened the hollow grind becomes larger. Your WE gives you a true v that you can polish effectively.