Anyone switched from Wicked Edge to Tormek?

pjwoolw said:
My point was that the Tormek will put a hollow grind on a knifes edge. Or any edge for that matter. So its not a true v or chisel grind. Close but still slightly hollow on a knife. The larger the area sharpened the hollow grind becomes larger. Your WE gives you a true v that you can polish effectively.
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I see what you're saying.

The Tormek T-7 uses a 10-inch wheel -- basically the size of a small pizza. If you look at an arc on that circle equal to the height of an edge bevel (maybe a millimeter or two), it's virtually a straight line, although actually a very shallow arc. In practical terms, it's hard for me to see it as a significant issue.
 
Hollow grinding isn't really an issue on a stone this large, plus you can also counter this effect by pulling the knife not exactly perpendicular across the stone.
I use my Tormek T7 mostly for freehand reprofiling/setting completely new bevels on kitchen knives, fixed blades & folders, as that is when the most steel has to be removed and the machine does so completely cold due to the watercooling, which to me is worth more than the speed of a belt grinder.
Refining steps are done with Rubber- and Paper Wheels with silicon carbide and/or diamond.
My Tormek is fitted with the SB-250 Blackstone (silicon carbide) as this works noticeably better on various high carbide steels (compared to the standard SG-250 stone (aluminum oxide), which does much better on simple carbon steel types)
 
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I've used a tormek t7 for sharpening a couple knives. I wasn't over impressed. It's actually quite slow at reprofiles. 90 rpm is very slow. It's mostly designed as said for chisels and planes. And even then go look at the woodworkers forums. It's not very popular there either as its too slow. Get a 1x42 belt grinder. Ceramic belts in 40,60,80,120 grits. Then trizact from a45 to a6 and a felt/leather belt and some compound. Believe me a leather belt at 4k sfm leaves a very precise polished edge. And it's also very good at sharpening axes, mower blades, chisels, plane blades, scissors, etc. Thinning down that .050 edge will take 10-15 min to .015 with a 120 grit belt. Dip in water every couple passes and you'll never draw the hardness from the edge. Use low pressure. The belts remove only as much metal as you want. And that leather belt comes in handy even to strop after sharpening by hand or your wicked edge. I always use mine after I sharpen using my water stones
 
The Sorby unit is superior for woodworking tools by far. Wish I had one. Can't real beat a belt grinder for general use. After over 40 years of experiments / mistakes on my part its still the winner hands down.
 
razor-edge-knives said:
Why not get a work sharp and use it for the heavy reprofiling then finish up on the Wicked edge to save you time?

I'm having a custom vise insert made for the gen 3...it wouldn't be too hard to have some more made I wouldn't imagine to fit different sized blades. I'll try to do a yt video after I get it.
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I got a KO Worksharp about a year ago. I ve used it on a few knives but i know I haven t gotten through the learning curve yet.
Still like my WE the best. Never use my old Edge Pro.
 
Well, dang. I ordered a Canada-made Viel S5 sander with a knife-sharpening attachment, along with a bunch of belts. Everything for about US$222.

There were too many disappointing comments about the Torek T7 to risk spending that much money -- more than $1,000 with the Japanese water stone.

I really appreciate all the help.
 
Twindog said:
Well, dang. I ordered a Canada-made Viel S5 sander with a knife-sharpening attachment, along with a bunch of belts. Everything for about US$222.

There were too many disappointing comments about the Torek T7 to risk spending that much money -- more than $1,000 with the Japanese water stone.

I really appreciate all the help.
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Love to hear your feedback. I really want to get one but haven't been able to justify it yet since I have a 2x72 on a vfd lol. The jigs are one of the things that make it so nice!
 
i have that same grinder and the knife jig. Excellent grinder. Horrible jig. I never could use it right. Requires you to grind edge up so it cuts into the belt shaving the abrasive off and it's hard to use unless it's a very wide knife. You may have better luck though. I'd suggest trying freehand after trying the jig to see how much easier it is and how much control you have. Here is an excellent thread which caused me to go down the belt grinder route. I don't know if it's allowed to post a link to another forum so google "sharpening my way Jerry Hossom"
 
Vicv said:
i have that same grinder and the knife jig. Excellent grinder. Horrible jig. I never could use it right. Requires you to grind edge up so it cuts into the belt shaving the abrasive off and it's hard to use unless it's a very wide knife. You may have better luck though. I'd suggest trying freehand after trying the jig to see how much easier it is and how much control you have. Here is an excellent thread which caused me to go down the belt grinder route. I don't know if it's allowed to post a link to another forum so google "sharpening my way Jerry Hossom"
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Yeah I second this... learn to freehand if you can, the jig will be too limiting. Now if you have a tool rest table to rest your hand on while freehanding that would certainly help. But I actually sharpen edge leading, into the belt, however, I will say that doing this is belt dependent. All belts cannot handle this, you will cut some if you try this so it would be safest to go edge trailing if you can, especially at those rpm's.
 
I guess I will go with free handing. Thanks for the tip on Jerry Hossom's sharpening techniques. He actually sharped one of my big 3V choppers for me, and it was pretty amazing. I've always resisted the belt sander approach, because the knives I've gotten that were sharpened that way were pretty average.

So, from watching the video, the secret seems to be hold a constant angle, edge down. Use coarse grits at the start, if the blade is dull, because it will build up less heat than using a fine grit on a dull edge. Dip blade in water if it begins to warm up.

Don't jump too much with grits: something like 180 to 320 to 500 to 1200 grit, followed by the leather stropping belt, with one or two levels of grit, if desired.

Keep the edge parallel to the floor, meaning you lift up on the handle as you begin to sharpen the belly and tip.

Don't leave the leather belt on the grinder when not in use so you don't stretch it.

We'll see.

The favorable exchange rate between the US and Canadian dollars make the Viel more affordable than the Kalamazoo.
 
Ya you have it right. A couple things though. You don't always have to go through the grits. That will give you a polished edge but you can skip from say 120 to 1200 for an edge with a lot of bite. All the 1200 will really do it reduve the burr so it's easy to remove with the leather/felt belt with compound. You'll get a feel for heat and act accordingly. Start with a cheap knife you don't care about as you'll probably ruin the first as you develop your technique. The overheating issue is overrated. I purposely overheated an edge to blue one time to see how long it took. Had to be 15 seconds in one spot without moving and a lot of pressure to colour the edge. Just be careful. If it's quite warm to the touch then dip and continue. Depending on the belt you're using you can even let the knife stay wet. Try to find some linen belts. They're like $2 each and will allow you to try a variety of compounds
 
Good choice. The Viel is a nice unit. Runs a bit faster than the Kalamazoo so it creates a bit more heat. I mostly use mine with a leather belt for final finishing.
 
Vicv said:
Ya you have it right. A couple things though. You don't always have to go through the grits. That will give you a polished edge but you can skip from say 120 to 1200 for an edge with a lot of bite. All the 1200 will really do it reduve the burr so it's easy to remove with the leather/felt belt with compound. You'll get a feel for heat and act accordingly. Start with a cheap knife you don't care about as you'll probably ruin the first as you develop your technique. The overheating issue is overrated. I purposely overheated an edge to blue one time to see how long it took. Had to be 15 seconds in one spot without moving and a lot of pressure to colour the edge. Just be careful. If it's quite warm to the touch then dip and continue. Depending on the belt you're using you can even let the knife stay wet. Try to find some linen belts. They're like $2 each and will allow you to try a variety of compounds
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Vic,

While I have no doubt what you say is correct that it takes that long to turn blue, I have my doubts about there not being any damage whatsoever prior to that point. The reason being is because there are many factors involved, such as is the steel stainless or carbon? Stainless will take longer to oxidize/change color, even though the damage may already be there. You also have to consider, by the time it gets too hot to touch w/ your fingers the apex of the edge is MUCH hotter because it is so much thinner. Even if it's just the last few microns.

For example (image wise) This part of a knife will get hotter so much faster than even 1/16" above the bevel.

dmt325_01.jpg


I'm not saying the temper gets damaged on all steels when you grind dry, there are just a lot of factors to take into account, more than I can even comprehend (over my head) at this point hehe.

OP, I would just recommend to keep your knife moving, use sharp belts (trash em when they start not cutting well), and dip in room temp water (cold water could cause micro fracturing as you quench a hot edge).
 
As far a heat goes its all about pressure and technique. Which takes time to develop. Pressure using a belt grinder is your enemy. You have to find that fine line in your technique to get the best results. I've been sharpening for many years and I still find errors and little things in my technique that improve results. I sharpen hundreds of knives a year so I have that advantage.
 
I completely agree friend I was just debunking the thought that as soon as a belt grinder is switched on the temper will simultaneously be ruined on all the knives in the drawer☺. And yes the edge will heat much quicker than say the spine. My belief though is. The edge is also attached to the rest of the blade and the rest of the blade is a big heat sink which will pull the heat away from the edge. I wasn't telling him to hold a knife still on the belt just showing the heat isn't bad as long as you watch it and use proper technique. Also I do wish I had a wet grinder I think that would be awesome but my favorite belts(trizact) can't be used wet so no go. And I find they run cooler than other belts anyway. About damaging the edge even without changing edge color knives sharpened on the grinder last just as long as those done by waterstone for me. I'll agree though that a wet belt grinder would definitely be safer

@pjwoolw I also agree completely with you. Pressure is your enemy. Not to mention I like using the slack portion just above the platen mostly and lots of pressure will just grind a very obtuse edge as the belt deflects. So use light pressure dip often and you'll be rewarded with ridiculously sharp knives in a fraction of the time

razor-edge-knives said:
Vic,

While I have no doubt what you say is correct that it takes that long to turn blue, I have my doubts about there not being any damage whatsoever prior to that point. The reason being is because there are many factors involved, such as is the steel stainless or carbon? Stainless will take longer to oxidize/change color, even though the damage may already be there. You also have to consider, by the time it gets too hot to touch w/ your fingers the apex of the edge is MUCH hotter because it is so much thinner. Even if it's just the last few microns.

For example (image wise) This part of a knife will get hotter so much faster than even 1/16" above the bevel.

dmt325_01.jpg


I'm not saying the temper gets damaged on all steels when you grind dry, there are just a lot of factors to take into account, more than I can even comprehend (over my head) at this point hehe.

OP, I would just recommend to keep your knife moving, use sharp belts (trash em when they start not cutting well), and dip in room temp water (cold water could cause micro fracturing as you quench a hot edge).
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Vicv said:
I completely agree friend I was just debunking the thought that as soon as a belt grinder is switched on the temper will simultaneously be ruined on all the knives in the drawer☺. And yes the edge will heat much quicker than say the spine. My belief though is. The edge is also attached to the rest of the blade and the rest of the blade is a big heat sink which will pull the heat away from the edge. I wasn't telling him to hold a knife still on the belt just showing the heat isn't bad as long as you watch it and use proper technique. Also I do wish I had a wet grinder I think that would be awesome but my favorite belts(trizact) can't be used wet so no go. And I find they run cooler than other belts anyway. About damaging the edge even without changing edge color knives sharpened on the grinder last just as long as those done by waterstone for me. I'll agree though that a wet belt grinder would definitely be safer

@pjwoolw I also agree completely with you. Pressure is your enemy. Not to mention I like using the slack portion just above the platen mostly and lots of pressure will just grind a very obtuse edge as the belt deflects. So use light pressure dip often and you'll be rewarded with ridiculously sharp knives in a fraction of the time
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Cool we are in agreement then 😊
 
Amazing picture there razor-edge-knives. Mind-boggling how much a microscope can reveal.
 
I did order the Viel S5 belt grinder, along with a bunch of belts. The Viel came in a box with holes punched in it. The belts were crunched up into a ball and jammed into the box. There were loose bolts and washers rattling around in the box. I had to turn the motor upside down to shake out a loose bolt. Pretty bizarre.

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So with no practice, I tried the grinder out on a Winkler II Belt Knife, which came with ungodly obtuse edge geometry — too thick for my Wicked Edge Gen III jaws. The 120-grit belt quickly raised a burr, but I could not get a truly sharp edge with the finer grit belts.

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The grinder removes metal fast, but you have to have the same kind of muscle-memory skills that you need with freehanding. The knife guide that I purchased with the unit was really no help, and it required you to sharpen into the belt, which seems dangerous to me. In addition, you can’t use edge-first techniques with the leather stropping wheels, so you lose your guide system on the last step, making the guidance system worthless.

I think I’m going to junk the Gen III WE jaws and go back to the Gen I clamp, which will allow me to sharpen thick knives, like the Winkler, and thin knives with distal tapers.

The grinder is handy for sharpening axes, but I can see that it will be a poor solution to sharpening unless I invest a lot of practice with the system. The old Wicked Edge is a much better system, if you care about top-quality edges.

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One thing that was positive is that there is not much danger of ruining the temper of the edge. Moving the knife slowly and testing the edge temperature with your fingers is all that is needed. My edge never became more than a little warm.
 
That is pretty bad that is shipped like that. Glad you got it going. I am. Going to disagree though on the wicked edge making better "top quality" edges. Like anything else a belt grinder takes practice. It won't make up for being a bad sharpener. It just speeds up the process of free hand with stones as it is also a free hand way of sharpening. I can get just as good of edges as someone can with a wicked edge. And I'll get it much faster. Not saying it's better than any other way. Depends on the tool using the tool:-)
 
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