Apprentice and Logistics

Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
8,651
With my shop being as busy as it is it’s hard to keep up. We haveplans to push it even further I have thought about possibly bringing in an someone for apprenticeship. It would most likely be a young high school student and only a few days a week. My wife helps the best she can but it’s still a lot for us to do. My knife orders are through the roof and being that I work a full time job it’s hard to stay caught up when I only have 3 days a week to devote.

I guess my question is about apprenticeship and is it worth the time investment. Eventually I would like to get to a place where I could employ a helper but that’s a little ways out depending on how well our future plans go. Also what type of logistics are we looking at. Is there concern having an under aged or young person in the shop helping. There is allways a chance for injury in this profession. Just looking for some insight or advise on this. It’s not set in stone that we are going to do this, it’s just been a thought on my mind lately.
Thanks guys.
 
Raise your prices, orders will slow down.

use that cash to outsource things you can. water jet profiling, pro HT in batches, surface grinding / lapping, some sort of shipping software,
 
Beware labor laws as well. Not exactly a one for one, but when I’ve arranged to have college kids intern with me at various places there are complicated rules. If these kids start doing “work” or “creating value” they start becoming employees. You start creeping into a grey area where you can’t have them doing stuff unpaid for the sake of them getting the experience and knowledge of that stuff would be classified as work of an employee. In every case we ultimately ended up just making the interns paid employees so that we did not have to exclude them from opportunities that would be good experience for them. I’m not sure how this translates or compares to “apprenticeships”, but something to look into.
 
Do you a high school kid that is willing to help you do work, and not get paid, in mind already? If not, i think the liability issue may very well be moot.
 
Raise your prices, orders will slow down.

use that cash to outsource things you can. water jet profiling, pro HT in batches, surface grinding / lapping, some sort of shipping software,
what the Count said!^^^ ... I just did an hourly wage thing after talking with my accountant for a part time employee..

Still by the time I trained them and then paid them, I could of done it myself in far less than a 1/4 the time and a 1/4 of the hard costs! Its a big one to bring someone else into the shop...

I would wait till after you are making your knives full time first... Don't be in any hurry!
 
Last edited:
Less I sound cynical (I am), I should expound a little bit on my position of finding painful certain death a more rewarding proposition than to hire an employee. Completely aside from my personal motivation to even do this, which is to craft something by myself and divest myself of all the soul killing circumstance of my day job.

I manage roughly 110 employees in manufacturing. 7 supervisors over 3 shifts and 15 or 20 job titles. I just spent the last week bouncing around career fairs and visiting technical colleges trying to recruit more. My position in this case, is that you can't afford an employee. Knowing nothing about your business other than that you aren't full time, and that you live in Washington which I'm guessing is very similar to Oregon and California in it's labor laws, it's courts similar in their decision making, it's bureaucracies similar in their prejudices (meaning in any arbitration you'll be wrong unless overwhelmingly proven otherwise and possibly still then, just for having the gall to give someone a job).

First, are you insured? In WI it's common for insurance companies to provide an option for rural folks like me that cover small business and to some extent employees due to the commonality of small family farms. I don't know if that's the case in WA. What about workers comp? If you fly without, are you prepared to cover an injured employee out of your own pocket? Note it does not matter how stupid what he did was, how much it was his fault, or how many times you told him to quit putting his dick in the press, if he squeezes it off, someone (you) is going to pay.

What will you pay this apprentice? As I said above I imagine WA state has something to say about that. Are you ready to give him a 7.2% raise right off the bat? Because that's your portion of his SS tax. So that's at minimum $12.34/hour out of your pocket for his labor. I don't know about you, but I don't make $12/hr on my knives in all but a few cases. I know for a fact my productivity will be hindered to some extent training someone. Let's say I do find someone who will show up when they say they will (they won't) and who will learn to do some of the more rudimentary tasks quickly (they can't) without screwing them up like a throw of the dice (they will).

How long is that guy going to be happy burning strips of bandsaw blade while you do all the "fun" stuff? How many hours of hand sanding will he endure before he suddenly forgets what a good clean finish is and begins to argue about what is "good enough?" Pretty soon he begins to lament even showing up more than half the time he's supposed to and begins devising ways with which to even the scales in his perception, because you were such an asshole to offer him a job in the first place (he could be playing call of duty right now). If he's a reasonable sort of fellow he'll just rob your copper and anything portable enough to fit into his car when you're at work. If he's too clever for his own good he'll fake an injury in your shop. If he's extremely nefarious he'll get hurt outside of work and then pretend to have gotten hurt at your place. (This is the point you begin looking for hobbies that don't involve employees)

I associate with or have associated with a lot of different groups of people, gun groups, gunsmith groups, machinist groups, political groups, product interest groups, various education groups, on and on. The knifemaker community has been without exception, the most generous, accepting, and easy to get along with group of people I've ever been part of. Even my experience on Forged in Fire was like that, drop me into a group of 4 people who were chosen by some New York casting company and hadn't ever even been aware of each other previously, and we got along like we'd known each other our whole lives. I've thought a lot about that since then, and it's something more than the fact that we all like to make knives. In fact, I don't think it has anything to do with knives.

I think it's because we all go out into the shop and spend our time and money trying to learn how to perfect a craft. We ALL know what abrasives cost. What tools and fuel cost. What waste costs. We ALL know how it feels to lose something we poured blood and sweat into, and when that happens, we turn it into a lesson to prevent it from happening again. We don't think the makers we look up to owe us anything and we're ecstatic and appreciative when they do share their own learned lessons with us, even in the occasions we didn't get the answer we hoped for like "keep sanding till all the scratches are gone" or "you just have to keep practicing because there's no magic method."

If you had any idea how rare the above is in the general populace, how incorrigibly stupid the majority are, how maniacally entitled most are, how many remain willfully ignorant of the simplest calculus: nothing in life is free - well, you'd be a cynic too.

Now, I'm not saying every employee is like this, or that every person. I guarantee there's a kid in your local high school that would be a perfect fit for you. He's honest and interested, and smart enough to want to learn. His parents didn't raise him by proxy through the television and he has some idea of what work means. He'll understand that the $11.50 an hour you're paying him comes with a bunch of knowledge and opportunity and he'll make the most out of it.

The problem is you may have better odds at the roulette table betting it all on black than finding him the first shot, unless you can rig the game through association. That's the essence of the idiom "It's not what you know, it's who you know." The idiom is wrong. It should be, "It's not what you know, it's what they know about you."

Just understand the risks involved (and how to mitigate them through LLC, personal property in trust, etc etc). The reward may not be worth it.
 
Last edited:
The best luck I had was hiring "old" guys with machining background and had a source of income and needed to get out of the house. While I was still employed I didn't have all the time I needed to fill all the projects on the books. Like the "Count" mentioned I outsourced certain tasks which I knew had deadlines that could be met by companies doing the work "Money" well spent parts were to spec and on time! As for the Old guys they still had the skills didn't have to spend time Teaching...Finding a young person with your vision and passion for the craft is probably a crap shoot and more than likely short lived one.

If your plan is to teach someone to make knives in your absence I think you have a tough search on your hands. If your plan is to find someone to do the dirty work you have a tough search on your hands.
 
like many positions on the shop floor in manufacturing, it might take you take 6 guys to go through before you find the right apprentice
 
As part of my work, I’ve got an 11 year old four to five days per week in my home for respite care. He is very high energy, and is VERY interested in what I do in the workshop. His mother is very happy to have him work in there with me and accepts that injuries are not only possibly, but likely. Now, I get there is a big difference between an 11 year old and an older teen, but having him help results in a lot of starting over, and pushes me way farther behind. Even if I just get him to organize things, or sweep up, the hundreds of questions push me behind.

I remember something on of my high school shop teachers told me years ago. He commented that I was one of the few students who didn’t need to be shown how to hold the tools before starting to work with them. We have to remember that is the starting point with most people.
 
I've got one friend of mine (navy, journeyman millwright and part way to machinist) who I've done enough work with that I can just give him a task, and he'll do it without ruining everything or requiring my babysitting. I will occasionally have him as my shop helper.

Note the word helper, not apprentice. This isn't me teaching him how to make knives. This is me giving him a pile of barstock, a bottle of dykem, a template and a scribe, and saying "scribe that knife onto all of these pieces, and then cut them out on the bandsaw"

As soon as I have to start teaching someone, or babysitting quality (grinding, blade finishing, handle shaping, ect) it's faster for me to just do it myself, let alone easier on my sanity.

And if I didn't have someone akin to who I do (some sort of skilled tradesman, preferably a machinist) who already knows how to use all of the tools and follow instructions, I'd just do everything myself as usual.

If I had a real huge order, I'd buy ground stock, waterjet, and outsource heat treat, and have a pile of blanks show up ready to bevel and put handles on. I'd quit doing knives and go work at the hardware store before I'd hire someone.
 
Its very hard to cover cost of insurance for just one.Also be prepared to lower your standards . Good , honest , willing to work , sober ,clean , show up on time ,all the time , pass back ground check ,and be happy with the money that can pay .I could make a much longer list but you get my drift.Add more of your own want and needs to this list and then pick a few .There are good people out there but can be very hard to find .Find a good one and you can make money with them .A bad one can cost you EVERYTHING ! WB
 
No matter what, Its liability for sure.
We were fortunate a trusted friend had son who worked for us thru highschool. He was paid under the table(and earned every penny! ).
As far as whats said about ” kids nowdays”, he was an anomoly, learned well & went on to become a M.E. Wish we had simply cloned him before he grew up.

Sadly,
My regular paying job suffered me an endless parade of Gameboy adept kids whos major electro-mechanical ability could only change batteries in their moms vibrator.
 
Last edited:
A couple things to consider from the psychology of working. The basic rules of people show that the rule of thirds applies. One third of people will do their best, and take pride in what they do. One third of people will try to meet expectations, and one third of people will see how much they can get away with before being fired. So, 66% of people are eliminated in your search off the bat, as we tend to be over the top in knifemaking in terms of striving to do our best.

The next important thing is recognizing that boys’ frontal lobes don’t fully mature until about 25 years of age. They may sound a bit like an adult, or look a bit like an adult from 15 on, but the part of the brain that regulates emotions, problem solves, and controls impulses is not the same as an adult. I can’t tell you how many managers I’ve worked with who had that “aha!” moment when they learned about this. People under 25, as a generalization, need supervision and structure to function. Self directed self management will not be a strong point in the vast majority of people under 25. Girls mature a few years earlier on average, but still not until the early 20s.
 
Back
Top