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AR-RPM9 Thread
- Thread starter Chronovore
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Johnny come lately I know, but just for anyone else who searches; I am very conical of this kind of thing too, but it really is a proper steel recipe. The scammy/scandal/dodgy part of the story is that AR-RPM9 is simply a pre-existing moderate to budget blade steel that they have made into CPM (powdered steel), I think the steel they copied was 440C but don’t quote me without checking. So I personally think it’s a waste of their money and customer money, having only mild Improvements on the mid range blade steel, but to their credit the prices aren’t much, I just much prefer the edge retention of D2 in all their older knives, it’s a step down for me, all hype
Chronovore
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Unlike 10Cr15CoMov, which is almost identical to VG-10, 9Cr18Mov is based on a modification of 440C. As far as edge retention, I don't know that the compositional difference between 440C and 9Cr18Mov is as important as their heat treatment in production knives. However, 9Cr18Mov definitely seems to be more stainless.
I've seen champions of AR-RPM9 claim the same thing about it versus 9Cr18Mov. In theory, AR-RPM9 has tighter tolerances versus the compositional ranges of 440C and 9Cr18Mov. That plus powder-metallurgy could be a good thing. Unfortunately, the best ingredients in the world still need a good baker. Artisan is the only company using AR-RPM9. So it's possible that the "meh" performance of AR-RPM9 is entirely due to their heat treatment of it. Who knows? Maybe it would be awesome with a better heat treatment? We might never find out.
BTW, the recipe is no longer a secret. Here is a comparison between 440C, 9Cr18Mov, and AR-RPM9. (Note that the graph shows maximum values when ranges are given. See the link for more information.)
Chronovore
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Every once in a while, I get "likes" indicating that someone has started reading this thread from the beginning.
I was very optimistic when this steel was announced. The idea of a PM budget steel was novel and they sure hyped it up. Finding out that it was just a PM version of 9Cr18Mov was a little underwhelming but I was still on board. Then it was released. Edge testing and plenty of anecdotal reporting on use just drove it home. All that work took a great idea and turned it into something less impressive than either 14C28N or regular 9Cr18Mov with a good heat treatment.
Now I feel bad for other people getting excited in the first few pages...
I was very optimistic when this steel was announced. The idea of a PM budget steel was novel and they sure hyped it up. Finding out that it was just a PM version of 9Cr18Mov was a little underwhelming but I was still on board. Then it was released. Edge testing and plenty of anecdotal reporting on use just drove it home. All that work took a great idea and turned it into something less impressive than either 14C28N or regular 9Cr18Mov with a good heat treatment.
Now I feel bad for other people getting excited in the first few pages...
Wow, ok. I think it’s counterintuitive to chart the highest allowed for almost any purpose, the mean would be infinitely more relevant, but it shows average composition that are mostly within the acceptable range for the other 2, except maybe Cobalt, which is a very odd choice of addition, and from very unscientific ways I’ve heard it described, it’s almost like they maybe just added Cobalt to create a useless difference to jump on the proprietary CPM bandwagon, since Cobalt has little if any positive effects unless the knife is used for cutting up volcanic rock while it’s still moltenUnlike 10Cr15CoMov, which is almost identical to VG-10, 9Cr18Mov is based on a modification of 440C. As far as edge retention, I don't know that the compositional difference between 440C and 9Cr18Mov is as important as their heat treatment in production knives. However, 9Cr18Mov definitely seems to be more stainless.
I've seen champions of AR-RPM9 claim the same thing about it versus 9Cr18Mov. In theory, AR-RPM9 has tighter tolerances versus the compositional ranges of 440C and 9Cr18Mov. That plus powder-metallurgy could be a good thing. Unfortunately, the best ingredients in the world still need a good baker. Artisan is the only company using AR-RPM9. So it's possible that the "meh" performance of AR-RPM9 is entirely due to their heat treatment of it. Who knows? Maybe it would be awesome with a better heat treatment? We might never find out.
BTW, the recipe is no longer a secret. Here is a comparison between 440C, 9Cr18Mov, and AR-RPM9. (Note that the graph shows maximum values when ranges are given. See the link for more information.)
Don't some Chinese guys on this forums posted that the steel is not even PM and it was just the proprietary name from some certain forge? Much like N695, which is just 440C in proprietary name (not to confuse with N690).
I see that you already put it in "In theory", though I still want to add - Tighter tolerance doesn't mean the most optimal. For example The theoretical D2 has a lot of alloy elements in it and has tighter tolerance than most offered D2, this includes many known European standards and offers, K110 from Austria is probably the most well known. Yet, we don't see much problem with that. (I'm not even talking about Chinese D2 here because we all know how bad it is)
I see that you already put it in "In theory", though I still want to add - Tighter tolerance doesn't mean the most optimal. For example The theoretical D2 has a lot of alloy elements in it and has tighter tolerance than most offered D2, this includes many known European standards and offers, K110 from Austria is probably the most well known. Yet, we don't see much problem with that. (I'm not even talking about Chinese D2 here because we all know how bad it is)
I read more articles from Larrin and some books a while ago. It seems that even though PM tech help the steel, there are still limits.
It seems like 440C is about where the line is drawn. 440C PM doesn't improve its toughness enough to worth the manufacturing cost. 154CM benefits from it apparently because it has less chromium carbide and Mo Carbide can be broken down smaller.
In short, more carbide than 440C, PM help a lot. Less carbides than 440C, it hardly help, which is why we don't see much PM used on ignot steels with less 1% C, unless used on some specially developed alloy.
With that, 9Cr18Mov/RPM9, it is more like high 440B rather than 440C. So even with PM, the toughness improvement is almost to none. Plus the shady origin and some Chinese people claim that there is no PM forge in China yet. In the end, it is a marketing gimmick.
It seems like 440C is about where the line is drawn. 440C PM doesn't improve its toughness enough to worth the manufacturing cost. 154CM benefits from it apparently because it has less chromium carbide and Mo Carbide can be broken down smaller.
In short, more carbide than 440C, PM help a lot. Less carbides than 440C, it hardly help, which is why we don't see much PM used on ignot steels with less 1% C, unless used on some specially developed alloy.
With that, 9Cr18Mov/RPM9, it is more like high 440B rather than 440C. So even with PM, the toughness improvement is almost to none. Plus the shady origin and some Chinese people claim that there is no PM forge in China yet. In the end, it is a marketing gimmick.
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Very true, but can we trust China in selling us the actual thing? China fakes everything and I don't know what to trust that comes out of China. Even their 9Cr is more like 10Cr is seems. I have a very hard time trusting anything Chinese, especially with the latest developments in stealing and copying without permission.
Chronovore
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Do you trust the device you are using to read this post?
While discussing the political and economic ramifications, and even the history or the reasons regarding how this situation came to be are restricted to the political sub-forum; it's worth noting the several Chinese knife companies doing decent work, using the claimed materials, engaging fairly with prominent designers from the United States or Europe, or interacting directly with the EDC community to provide the things we want. Some easy examples include Kizer, Kubey, Bestech, WE (and their sub-brands such as Civivi and Sencut).
The pertinent question here is whether Artisan is one of those companies. Sure, they've been doing some of those things and it could be argued that they are better than some of the notably "bad" companies in China. For instance, there are still companies out there producing outright counterfeits, improperly copying the designs of others, lying about their steel content, etc.. So did Artisan really know, understand, or properly translate regarding the company that made AR-RPM9 for them? While an honest mistake is possible, it still stinks. As I've said previously, my experiences with both Artisan's QC and customer service have been abysmal too. So I don't recommend them.
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To answer your question:
Yes, I do trust the device I am using to read this posting, since I don't have Chinese or Russian software installed on it.
To address the rest of your comment:
Thank you for telling me there is a sub-forum for political discussion, which I am not at all interested in though. And no, 'the pertinent question here' is not 'whether Artisan Cutlery is "one of "those" companies'; since I have asked the question and specifically mentioned China as a whole, since you essentially have to obey the CCP. But then I don't want to discuss politics.
The pertinent question is actually asking for ways and means to make sure "the thing is the actual thing"; since we don't seem to have any, other than testing the materials ourselves, and I don't have the means for that. But then I am German and I trust my government and our rules, policies and overall company conduct, which I don't think we can compare to China at all.
I would be more inclined if the company was a trustworthy western company, which makes sure of things before selling us a thing. (Just to clarify.)
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someone should've told ya, so i will...chrony is the forums expert in chyna knafs........
Chronovore
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The point about your device was aimed at the hardware since it was probably made in China. As far as Russian or Chinese software living on that device, are you sure?
What is sure to me is that you want to talk politics, since that's what a lot of your post actually is. There are answers to the points you raise but this is not the place (per forum rules). Seriously, consider supporting this forum with a basic membership and then join us over there to actually talk about it.
On the more practical, non-political stuff, there has been grassroots testing for a long time. Sure, people knock cut-testing due to all the variables present. However, various people have been punching knives for hardness values and at least one guy has been consistently sending knives out for XRF testing to check steel identity for years. While that means only a small selection of products are tested, trends do emerge. It either exposes fakers or builds trust with respect to those sorts of issues.
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can't we just talk about chyna steals and knafs?
DocJD
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If they didn't , exactly whose fault is that ?
If a company cannot be trusted to have full knowledge of their own products , then how can their advertising be trusted in any case ?
Translation errors are the worst excuse ever . Hire some "native" speakers !
Chronovore
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If they didn't , exactly whose fault is that ?
If a company cannot be trusted to have full knowledge of their own products , then how can their advertising be trusted in any case ?
Translation errors are the worst excuse ever . Hire some "native" speakers !
You're right and Artisan is squarely in the wrong on this one. I've aired other problems with them but this is disappointing on a much larger level. While I still occasionally use my Emler Sea Snake from them, Artisan/CJRB has been on my "avoid" list for a while. Larrin's expose on the steel was just nails in the coffin.
DocJD
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I have plenty of trust issues to go around !
Country of origin , not so much , as the specific company executives .
Even Cold Steel , now GSM , and just not at all the same for me anymore . For one example .
I love having this forum, to get actual user feedback , before I buy .
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one does have to question if they didn't tell the truth on the steel, what about on everything else.
it does make me question the companies ethics. course I question bout every companies ethics. even in europe, the Americas and every other continent....but that isnt the topic here.
I have a few of their knives under 2 of their brand names. they haven't been bad for the price points. some have this steel. I didn't buy them cause of the steel, more the price points and curious on fit and finish and whatnot. they seem to work fine as chyna make knafs......
it does make me question the companies ethics. course I question bout every companies ethics. even in europe, the Americas and every other continent....but that isnt the topic here.
I have a few of their knives under 2 of their brand names. they haven't been bad for the price points. some have this steel. I didn't buy them cause of the steel, more the price points and curious on fit and finish and whatnot. they seem to work fine as chyna make knafs......
Chronovore
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There are just too many better companies swimming in this pond. Kizer, Kubey, Bestech, WE and their sub-brands, and all the OEM work those companies are doing... Heck, I've really been enjoying Vosteed lately. I know some of their stuff was made by Kizer but not sure who they use now. I think Kubey is doing some of the current Asher knives... Just saying, too many good choices at this level for a company to be pulling boners like this.
vwb563
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I have a CJRB Pyrite that the lock button was looking pretty “chewed” up. The button seems to be very soft. Anyway I emailed them asking if purchasing a new lock button was possible and I got a response within a couple days asking me what model knife I had. The email didn’t say whether or not they sold new lock buttons only what model I had. I immediately emailed them back giving them the name and model number of my knife. That was around 2 months ago and I’ve never heard back from them. I’m kinda irritated by this failure on their end to help a customer of theirs and probably won’t be buying anymore CJRB or Artisan knives.