Are Tacticals Really Custom Knives?

[Howard Faltz]

When a custom maker creates an "art knife" it
is a "one of a kind" item. Theoreticly, if he
creates an exact duplicte the value of the original is reduced by 1/2. Yet the tactical
knifemaker often produces hundreds of the same, EXACT knife. With only the DESIGN, not the knife being custom. Should custom tacticals be considered in the same catagory
as "art knives", or should a new more correct catagory of knives be coined as not to mislead tactical knife buyers that they are purchasing a "one of a kind". Would like to hear your opinion.

------------------
Howard A. Faltz, Owner
Arizona Knife Source
"Keep it Sharp"
Luke 22:26
www.azknife.com

 

[Les Robertson]

Howard,

First, the word custom can be misleading.

If Bill Wilson works on a Colt .45 it is called a custom gun. Did Bill make this gun? No. What he did do is "customize" this pistol. So this should more accurately be called a Customized pistol. But that is not what it is called.

The word custom in the knife making circles has two meanings.

The literal. A knife is made to an individual specifications. This is a custom knife. However, it does not mean it is a one of a kind.

The category. The term Custom Knives was coined in the mid 70's to describe all of the handmade knives being made.

Art Knives, are generally considered to be 1) Fancy, 2)Expensive 3) to have some type of emblishment.

Presentation knives, can look very similar to Art knives, but generally are less expensive and do not have embellishemnts.

Tactical knives, generally have a black and silver or black and gray (bead blast) look to them. These knives generally incorporate some type of modern machining in them. Such as Laser cutting, water jet, CNC, etc. Much confusion exsists here. These machines do nothing but replace the band saw, mill and drill press. These machines allow the maker to receive a superior "BLANK" to start with.

The maker still has to craft the knife. All profiling, grinding and final fit and finish are done by the maker him or herself.

The confusion is mainly coming from the factory side of the house. This is due in large part to the factories basicly letting the custom makers do all theire R&D for them. Which for the factories is a good thing.

However, these collborations are leading to some confusion to the casual knife buyer. Go to the Knives for Sale room on this site. Note how many times you see Emerson, Terzuola, Viele,Elishewitz etc. for sale. Only to click on it and see the price is $100. These people are doing exactly what the factories want. They are not saying Emerson Knives Inc. or Spyderco or Benchmade.

Howard, I dont know of anyone in custom knives that considers Art Knives and Tactical Knives in the same category other than being under the umbrella of "Custom Knives".

Should the copies of case knives that Tony Bose and Eugen Shadley make be considered something else, because they are doing nothing but copying a factory design? How about Retro Customs.

If you were to look at my web site, you would see several different categories of Custom Knives.

As for reducing a Art Knife by half, if a second one is made. I don't follow the logic of that statement. Example, Steve Hoel one of the best interframe folder makers in the world has produced several hundred of his "Coke Bottle" pattern interframe. Im sure the first one was made at the request of a customer who had collected the factory pattern before. To your way of thinking, that means that last of these made are worth less than 1 cent. This is certainly not the case with Steve's work. Ron Lake has made hundreds of his interfame knives with the "T" lock, many look the same. Yet these sell in excess of several thousand dollars per knife.

To many long time factory buyers this is one of the most frustrating things about custom knvies.

First, there is no book of exact values of every custom knife made. Why, because it would be virtually impossible to catalog every knife made.

Second, Factories, because they have exact accounting procedures can give you exact "population" reports on every knife they make, for every year. The fewer made (the smaller the population), the rarer the knife and the more it is worth to the avid collector.

Finally, custom knives are inexact science. Every maker I know has gone through the process of trying to figure out what each knife they make is worth. The first time around anyway.

There is no secret formula, some basically take material costs + Shop time ($ per hour determined by the maker)+ sheath (if applicable) and come up with a price.

Some makers compare their work to others who are producing a similar knife. Then base the price on their competitors work. This very tricky as this is where the intangibles come into play.

Such as:

Maker's reputation
Awards won
Magainze Cover's
Magazine Article'
Position held in a particular market
Number of show's he or she has attended.
Do they consistently intovate (as opposed to just copying what someone else is doing).
Are their knives sought after in the aftermarket?

Howard, I think you do bring up a good point about possibly creating a new catagory for knives.

I personally would like to see a differentiation between Tactical and Utlity.

Most folding knives my have a tactical look but are built mainly for utility.

But, as Custom Knives have come to mean "any hand made knife". Tactical Knives have come to mean any knife that is black and gray.

However, from a business point of view a category or market is nothing more than a defined arena to enter into. The most important thing is to consistently strive to raise your position in that market.

When you say Buster Warinski, do you really need to say...Art Knife maker.

How about Kit Carson or Al Polkowski, do you really need to say Tactical Knife maker.

These gentlemen and hundreds of others have gone beyone categories They understang that categories are nothing but a name for a group of knives for the uninitiated. A category is a starting place for a maker.

Tom Peter's writes about "branding" yourself. Letting employers and customers to know who you are and what you stand for. Why should the hire or buy from you.

Today's new maker's are starting to adopt his idea. They are thinking outside the box. They embrace new technology, they understand that to maintain a competitive position in the market, they must be flexible.

This is why you see Art Knife/Presentation Grade makers such as David Broadwell, Joel Chamblin, Jim Minnick, Warren Osborne, Darrel Ralph, Jim Siska, John W. Smith, Brian Tighe,
and others making "tactical knives".

These makers understand that this is where the market is today. This will change in the years to come. These makers are "thinking outside the box". They are producing world class knives at prices the average buyer can afford. They are not waiting for customers to come to them, they are being proactive.

You look at established makers in Tactical Knives. Kit Carson, Pat Crawford, Mike Franklin, Allen Elishewitz, RJ Martin, Al Polkowski and others. These guys are taking the current knives to a higher level. They are the first to work with new designs, new materials and new technical advantages.

I feel that those who buy custom knives, worry little about the category name. They are mainly looking (in a user), performance, the best materials, looks and value for the money. Possibly resale or trade value.

The Art and Presentation grade knives, Overall eye appeal, materials, pride in ownership. Possibly investment value.

This subject can be debated to death. What is, what is not, etc.

I can see where Howard is coming from. I think he is voicing a concern for new custom knife buyers. Which is a good thing.

As Howard has done and asked for is your comments and questions. This is how we all learn.

On a personal note, I enjoy reading what new collectors or makers think. Those of us who have been around for awhile sometimes forget that there was a time when we were asking these same type of questions. I know I for one am guilty of that from time to time.

Les

 

[Knife Outlet]

In my opinion some custom knife makers make production knives. Chris Reeve would be an example. Certainly Chris Reeve is capable of making and has made one-off custom knives. Certainly the Sebenza isn't one of them.

Some of them allow the customer to alter some things like handle material. A good example might be the Janus from both Elishewitz and Crawford. The knife is basically the same but different at the same time depending on the maker. The makers will allow a customer to have the knife customized by selecting handle materials and so forth.

The hard thing for me to nail down in the definition is how "custom" it has to be to merit the description. Does it have to be unique? Does it just have to be modified to suit the customer's preference? I think one needs to make his own definitions since there certainly isn't any concensus. I think customized is the same as custom in my book. Fitting something to the preferences and desires of a customer counts as custom in my book regardless of how many like it there may be on the planet.

I also agree that a second iteration of the same knife doesn't halve the value of each. Value is based on too many factors to have that enter in, in my opinion.

Take care.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
www.knifeoutlet.com

 

[Howard Faltz]

Les makes valid points. And yes he is correct. For example, Lynn Griffith, in any post I have read of his, NEVER refers to himself has a "Custom" Knifemaker". It always is "Lynn Griffith, Tactical Knifemaker." This is very refreshing and honest. Thank you, Lynn. If only, all makers and manufacturers abided by the same rules. Hey. wait a minuite. there are no rules. Maybe........


------------------
Howard A. Faltz, Owner
Arizona Knife Source
"Keep it Sharp"
Luke 22:26
www.azknife.com

 

[Axel Yup]

I won't delve into the semantics because Les pretty much covered that, but for me a big plus with buying from a custom maker is that they can modify knives to your liking.

A case in point is Pat Crawford. I have purchased/ordered five knives from him over the last two years and none of these were catalog items. The "custom" touches ranged from reducing the blade lengths, adding thumb scallops, leaving off the clip, tapping both sides of the handle for the clip, and a full blown training knife. It just shows what a great maker Pat is that he never balked at my requests. I know many of his customers have also asked for their own custom touches. I seem to recall Sal Glesser of Spyderco having Pat make him a KFF with the Spyderco hole.

Try to get a factory to do anything like that for you. They won't do it, I asked.

Axel

 

[Kit Carson]

Howard,
My business is incorporated as Carson Custom Knives, Inc. It could just as well have been Kit Carson, Knifemaker.

I'm a knifemaker and over 27 years have made just about every kind of knife there is. I enjoy making utility (tactical) knives more than the others.

The Model 4 and Model 16 are my standard folders. They range from carbon fiber/bead blasted to damascus blade/bolsters, and pearl handles. I try to build it like the customer wants. In my mind this makes it a "custom".

If Lynn builds a knife with pearl handles, should he change his title? What's wrong with "Knifemaker"?

When you make a living doing this, you have to go with what is popular/sells. Utility/tacticals are still as hot as ever.

End of rant.

 

[KenOnion]

Gee guys, now I gotta change my business card to read Ken Onion a guy who builds knives ,by hand ,with the aid of tools, for people who want them.
Kinda windy don't you think? I love you guys. Keep the rant going it's fun !!
Aloha Me!

 

[imp]

Ken, you may use tools to build your knives but I know you don't laser or water cut any of your blades, liners, handles or any of the other parts that go into your knives.

 

[RKnight]

There's nothing new under the sun.

Ever heard that?

All the sound blade shapes are known, and sound handle shapes.

Makers like Carson, J.W. Smith (just a couple so you get the idea)and many others make timeless quality tactical designs worth the money (350 - 375, reasonable). Tighe and Lightfoot are good, but worth 75 more than Carson or Smith?, not a chance.

This attempt to distingish between art, custom, etc., is going nowhere. The market is changing so fast in terms of what's hot and what's not, that nobody can make sense of it, chaos rules, all the old rules are out the window. If it sells, make it. Many makers pander to the whims of unknowledgeable buyers, and it won't be worth anything in a couple of years. Money won't buy collectibility. And who cares. (It's out the window). The line between custom and value is getting very narrow. Buy it and use it because you like it, and it's dependable.

Prices are going through the roof for no good reason, other than noteriety.

Sure, I'm pissing off makers and dealers alike who just want to make money. So what, freedom of speech, remember. Some of these dealers and makers won't sell me a knife now, so what. Who needs it?

The Polecat was touted as the definitive 90's defensive design. And IMO it was and still is better than some FB stuff being marketed today. And it's still worth what it sold for.

A couple of weeks ago AZCK had 10 Carson 3" model 4 hunters, satin finish, carbon fiber scales for 295, dressy but understated, while I sat around and thought about it for a week, all ten were gone. That's what the market is buying (snapped them right up). Price an issue?, I don't think so, if you can afford 300 you can afford 400, in that bracket it's just a night on the town.

I still see 6 - 8 Elishwitz models sitting on many custom dealers sites (including his). Maybe they're selling and being replaced by others, but I doubt it.

R J Martin ( a part time maker) is suddenly backed up a year. Try to find a 3 1/2" kozuka somewhere. I know of two.

You want truly unique high style?, the MT full size m/a socom ( a highly styled and unique design) is still a more unique design and better quality knife than many customs (and at around 170, a bargain), we'll just overlook the kestral and whatever the other one is. It's a genuine classic. Well conceived, well built. What custom maker can come up a new design to beat that? I haven't seen anything close.

OK, rant mode off.

 

[Blues]

I'll back up my man Kit on this one.

If somebody could look at the red bone model 4 he made for me with filework and personal engraving and not see a custom knife, then imho he is making an argument just for the sake of doing so.

The same could be said for the all damascus model 16 I have had the good fortune to receive from Kit. Definitely custom, definitely tactical.

I won't even get into the stellite model 16....

Blues

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Live Free or Die

 

[Les Robertson]

RKnight,

I agree with you on the point about Art, Custom,etc. that the discussion goes around in circles.

However, as you are a collector and not in the business, your comments understandably are from that perspective. Consequently, they are wrong.

Yes, prices are going up. Quick question RK, what is the difference in cost per pound between ATS-34 and Talonite. What is the cost differential between a stainless steel bolster and titanium. Also, how much longer does it take to work titanium than stainless?

What upgrades are necessary in makers shop on his exhaust system in order to work carbon fiber as opposed to G-10 or Micarta? What is the cost differential between G-10 and carbon fiber? Ive listed a couple just so you get the idea.

These are the reasons the price is as you say "going through the roof". The cost of these new materials, the special equipment to work them. A carbide drill bit to work titanium will run between $40 -$50. For a drill bit, and this is not one that lasts a lifetime. Also, Im sure your familiar with inflation, fluctuating loan interest rates and other things that come into play in the price structure of a particular knife.

Does chaos exsist in custom knives? Acutally, no. Custom knives generally work on a 12 year (approximately) cycle. Mostly, because as you say, all of the workable blade styles have been discovered.

Tactical/Utility folders have been the mainstay of custom knives for the last 5 years. They have become the "hunter" of the 90's. That is to say, they have become the introductory knife for most collectors/users.
Not all, but most.

After 3-5 years most collectors start to reevaluate their collection. They have become more educated and start to sell or trade some of their knives for others that now suit their taste(s) better.

You started to see this with Damascus blades on tactical frames. Then collectors jumped all the way in and started to buy Damascus folders. This trend has been stalled a little due to the introduction of the super steels (BG-42, 440V, 420V, 3V)and the alloy Talonite.

Rumor has it Hitachi (who is the primary producer of ATS-34 in Japan) is closing it's doors. Consequently, note that many makers are returning to 154CM (which is basically ATS-34, but made in the US). This is not to say that there is no more ATS-34, there are still TONS of it around the world.

You can now look for upscale tactical/utility folders to start showing up, slowly at first.
However, these knives will offer the state of the art materials.

As the collectors have their needs met with these steels, Damascus will come back into favor for many of the collectors.

Two other trends are tactical/self defense fixed blades and Tactical Double Action Auto's.

Fixed blades never really go away. Every 5 years they just seem to get hot for 2-3 years. Here they come again. Watch for these knives to incoroprate the super steels and great carry systems. Kydex and Concealex will be the favorites. Tactical Tools, Blade Tech and now Blade Rigger is selling his carry systems seperatly. You can expect some great combinations of steel and kydex/concealex.

Rk, your right to the casual observer, it may seem chaotic. However, it is not really.

Rk, all the makers you mentioned sell very well. Including Elishewitz. Yes, I have 4 different models of his and 3 different Auto's. His auto's sell particularly well.

By the way I have 3 RJ Matin Kozuka's.

Regarding unknowledgeable buyer's, exactly who's fault is that? You make it sound like we as custom knife professional's are preying on people who have no common sense and cannot judge the value of a dollar.

Everyone (including you) says buy what you like. Well, this can be a mistake. I collect coins. The saying in coins is "BUY THE BOOK FIRST". This is sound advice.

We all get knife fever, I know Ive had it for 15 years. I made a lot of mistakes early on and wasted a lot of money. Hence the saying "you pay to go to school".

It is incumbant upon each knife buyer to learn about knives. Learn about the ways in which they are made, how much do materials cost, what is the time (= cost) difference in working Titanium as opposed to steel. How about the difference between wood and Pearl or Pearl and Ivory.

This will help you successfully gauge the value of what you are getting. Yes, like it or not, name and/or reputation does come into play. This is what's known as an "intangible". The Nike "swoosh" is just a modified check mark. However, it is worth millions in revenue each year to Nike.

By learning more about custom knives you will spend your money wisely and will accomplish two other things.

1) You will send a message to those makers who's prices are too high for what they do. The maker then has the choice of lowering his/her price(s) or finding another vocation.

2) You will send a message to all of us involved professionally in custom knives that you require a particular skill level as well as proper value to material/labor ratio. The makers that fail to understand this will again be looking for a new vocation.

As a Custom Knife Dealer I do this. That is why not every maker is on my site. I do not pander to fad's (this is differnt then a trend, as fad's are much shorter term, generally never to return). I am the only dealer I know of in custom knives who will allow you to trade back in any knife you buy from me towards a more expensive knife. This allows you to continue to advance you collection with minimal expense.

I can do this for two reasons:

1) 98% of the knives I sell are at the makers price.

2) I don't sell knvies that do not offer value for the dollar.

I have very few (if any) knives on my site that are consignment pieces. Currently, I have a total of 6 on my site. The point here is, I spend my money to buy these knives. Having done this for a few years I can tell that if I am spending my money on them, you probably should be as well.

I do take value, ROI (return on ivestment), investment potential, and how these makers and knives will do in the aftermarket. However, this is secondary to the quality and does the knife perform the function for which it is intended.

I spend a lot of time here, at shows and on the phone answering questions about custom knvies. My favorite question is the one I can't answer. This makes me learn something new about knives.

RK, there are more to custom knives than just the price. You are getting the best in materials, you are getting pride in ownership, at times a collectable. Perhaps the best thing you get is one of those intangible's I spoke of earlier. The time you get to spend with those who truly understand your passion for knives.

Les
a.k.a Master of Chaos!

 

[RKnight]

Les,

Thanks, I always benefit when you share your knowledge and opinions.

------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it

 

[Kit Carson]

That Les is definitely a man of few words.

 

[Les Robertson]

Kit,

Thanks

 

[KenOnion]

Ron Knight,

You are probably a really nice guy.However you have got to be kidding ."There is nothing new under the sun"? Thats absurd how can you say such a thing ? The world is wide open for new ideas .We as a society have the ability to do amazing things ,things available only in dreams just a few years ago.
The world of negativity is indeed a world I don't want to be a part of . If every one thought like you do where would we be as a society? Would we still be skinning our game with obsidian?
Why not at least try? Try to build something new and exciting .Try to improve the knife,make it better.I can't help but believe that there are alot of things out there that havn't been discovered yet.We as a collective group of knife enthusiasts should make it our duty to uncover these gems.Thats what makes me get up in the morning, the pursuit of something new and undiscovered.If not that than what ?
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?Forbid it almighty God , I know not what course others may take but as for me give me liberty or give me death"!!!!!
Sorry I couldn't help my self I was on a roll and couldn't stop.Had to throw a little Sir Patrick Henry on ya.Hopefully He can pull you back from the dark side.
Optimism is a much more plesant part of the brain to think from.
SEEK THE LIGHT!!!!!

Just figgered I'd add to the rant
Aloha!!!!! Ken
Ps.The knifemakers you mentioned are great knifemakers as well as great guys you could never go wrong purchasing there knives .My point is only that the world is wide open for new ideas in knives as well as everything else. There is alot of "new" under the sun we just need to pursuit it

 

[tbark]

there is new Ideas all over the place ,I just designed a new type ov linerlock I have never seen on of it's 2 blade with the locking liner in the middle opens like a muscrat pattern made with .050 titanium ,on bolsters & liners .BTW I love my new K.O. Kershaw,with the spring assist blade

 

[TomW]

To my way of thinking most of you knifemakers make few custom knives. Doesn't matter if they're Tactical or Art Knives. I go with the old Loveless description that unless they're made to a customers specifications they're Bench Made knives.

 

[Les Robertson]

Tom,

Once again, you and Bob are not current with the times.

Hell, Bob hasn't made his knives unassisted for years.

So what does that make his knives? They are not even bench made, they are semi-production.

Before you go quoting a source, consider who they are and what they are currently doing.

While Loveless gets a lot of credit for his idea's. It took the Japanese and a strong Yen in the 80's for his work to sky rocket in price. Today's prices do not reflect the quality of the work, only the name.

Bob's work has been marginal at best for the last 12 years.

You pick the pattern, Ill lay a Herron of the same design next to it. You will be amazed at how bad the work on a Loveless really is.

I did the same thing with a Hartsifeld this weekend. Guy told me his Kwaiken was $700.00. Layed it next to a $525.00 RJ Martin Kwaiken. I asked him which was better. I asked some by standers which was better. Guess what the answer was.

This is what I mean about doing your "homework". You have to know what the value of the work is. Don't base your opinion's on those who are not current. This is how you end up with a knife that is a "grave yard" knife. You know, a knife you take to the grave with you, because no one wants it.

Les

 

[TomW]

You sure are the master of babble but you use too many words to say nothing. It's interesting that you know more about making knives than mister Loveless. You seem to think you know more about everything than everybody. But the fact still remains that there is a difference in a true custom knife and a bench made knife. A bench made knife is what you sell at every show you attend.
Your table is full of them. The term benchmade will probably vanish from knife talk
since the Benchmade factory took the name. But it is still the most accurate description of the knives most people buy.
Tom
Proud member of the out of date crusty old knife guys club.
Hmmm Think I'll go down to the inn grab a grog and look for a wench

 

[HermanKnives]

Ron,

I agree with Ken! I have designed several new
knives this year i believe to be quite original and new. My "sliver" and my "bird of prey" which i will debut at the Art Knife
Invitational this October. You need to open
your eyes and look around at knives other than "tacticals" which in my opinion are more
production than hand-made knives and should
be in gun shows rather than custom knife shows.

As for value, who can say? True, name has something to do with it but how do you put a value on a truly one of a kind work of art?
According to Les I guess h would only pay for
cost of materials and an hourly wage for a
Rembrandt which would be "reasonable" indeed
as in those times minimum wage was probably quite low! sheeeesh give me a break.
Les also only looks at return on an investment being a dealer. A true collector
buys what he likes if the price is suitable
to him and doesnt look at "return on his investment" as the sole reason for buying.
Too bad there arent many true collectors left
as some dealers push their return on your investment philosophy on them. It truly breaks my heart to see someone like Fred Carter with so much talent and taste for exquisite design have to make "tacticals" to
survive!! What a crock, he should be making
presentation daggers and folders for kings
and museums. So have Les put prices on Picasso's and Michaelangelo's for us.

While i am on a roll...why do dealers expect
a sizeable discount from makers to handle their knives? This means the knifemakers time
is worth less just because the guy is a "dealer"? I have had people at shows ask me
if since they are "dealers" do they get a discount! What in insult!! I tell them sure
if you buy a dozen

I think many of the so called "dealers" have ruined alot of collectors attitudes and makers livelyhood.
Fot tactical stuff the guys have cut out by
the hundred sand assemble, fine. But true hand made knives that take alot of time and arent made by the dozen and done totally by the maker, don't insult us by asking for a "dealer" discount.
Also, so many dealers have pushed their "trends" because thats where they can make a
profit because they buy those knives to sell.

Les,
If "tacticals" are the mainstay of "custom"
knives then maybe I should find a new vocation too as I will never make a "tactical" knife. But I have been an artist all my life and it is just a part of me so I think i will just continue making my knives
as there are true collectors still out there
that appreciate mine and others artistic works without whining over their return on their investment. I think I will look into
art galleries and other markets where the "dealers" look at things artistically instead
of materials and hourly wages. I have just had it with "custom knife dealers". Les, get a real job

Tom,
I agree with you on the term custom. A true custom piece is made to order from the buyer
like custom made and fitted boots. Hand made knives are not custom most of the time.

Ok, I am all done

Ramble on boys