Are Tacticals Really Custom Knives?

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thank you Howard,

But I will not be insulted and put down by a person who obviously knows absolutely nothing about me or my lifelong work.
What do you think my collectors and newly interested collectors will think of me if they listen to les? That I "had my time" and
am now not able to sell any knives? Dealers can't give them away?
Thanks but no thanks. I don't need this type of trash slinging. Maybe les would make a better politician than knife person.

If I am so washed up and not sellable and vary my work, why am I one of only 25 world known makers invited to the very prestigious Art Knife Invitational? Will les be there? i think not...no tacticals there.

That's all from me, thanks. Tim
 
Well, im not the most qualified to speak on the subject. I only have 2 custom knives, 3 if ya count the Sebenza. I dont know if its custom or not, but I like to think it is
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Anyway Les, in your position as moderator, and I use that term very loosely in your case, all you seem to be able to do is run off what may very well be some of the finest makers around. I have seen pics of the Sliver, and I for one like it very much. Regarding your statement about art no being appreciated until the artist is dead is HORSE HOCKEY. The Sliver is a beutiful knife, and Mr Herman is very much alive. I will not own one in the near future, as I cannot afford it, but I can appreciate it. Im sure there are plenty of people who can afford it, and will buy it and others like it. Les, I know you like to think of this forum as your own little kingdom, but its not. I guess it should be renamed the "All the knives that Les likes and sells forum." Personally Les, I hope the rest of your stay as moderator will be short. Have a nice day.

 
i think the topic of this thread should change to "wanna be novel writers anonymous" les should be the ring leader.

WBNWA!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH BABY!!!!!
 
Les you comment in refering to Drew :

Could I write an article on the making of a custom knife, of course, as could you. Does this mean we really know what its like, no.
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Les, Drew is a custom knife maker so I assume he would know what it is like.

As for people's backgrounds, Drew I agree with you that we should discuss the arguments and not the people, but Les has a point. When someone states something that makes little or no sense my first impulse is to wonder about that person. And I would question what they are basing it on. For example when Chris Reeve stated that Talonite would not make a good blade steel I asked him where this was coming from. Has he worked with this material? Has he done any material testing etc.? He is someone who is in a position to give valuable information based on his years as a knifemaker and I wanted to be able to judge the merits of his statement.

In this forum it seems of interest about the economics of knives rather than thier utility aspects and such. As such Les often asks questions with the same intent as I asked of Chris, but with a different focus as the subject matter is different.

As for custom/benchmade etc., Les and I went at it over this awhile ago, I don't consider most of the knives he sells to be customs as the consumer didn't have any input in them. His point of view is simply that custom is a defined term accepted by many and it does not include this aspect. He keeps using it just because it is well known.

-Cliff
 
Richard,

The knives I recommend to buy are those that provide the best quality for the money.

As I have stated numerous times. Makers deal in the primary market. Once they sell the knife, generally it is gone forever.

Dealers deal in the aftermarket. Once we sell a knife, it is not gone forever. We, unlike makers take knives back in trade.

With this concept in mind, I feel I need to represent the truth as well as possible. This is why I have a trade in policy, while others do not. I stand behind every knife I sell and the makers that have made these knives.

The last thing you want to hear is that the knife you bought for $500 off of my table. Is now 6 months later only worth $275 in trade.

How long would you stay in custom knives if this happened to you on every single knife you bought?

All of us who are in custom knives professionally. Realize that we need to do a better job taking care of our customers than we did a decade ago.

Most of the people on this forum were not around in the late 80's and early 90's when the custom knife market took a big hit. Too many of the knives did not even come close to holding their value.

Particularly, the interframe folder market, in which Tim Herman was one of the best. The Japanese bought up a large amount of these knives. Then when their economy went bad they dumped these knives. This was the beginning of the end for the interframe folder.

Customers taking huge loss's on these knives led to a mass exodus of high dollar buyers from custom knives.

Then, like it or not. Tactical folders came along and jumped started the overall custom knife market again.

This is not to say that these are the only knives that anyone is buying. As I have consistently stated, the tactical folder became the entry level knife that brought many from the factory side of the house.

The custom knife market is cyclical. The education process takes a long time. However, sites such as this and other internet sites is speeding this up.

Who know's maybe Tim's knife will start a whole new revolution in stainless steel folders.

Which did you order?

Les
 
Hi Cliff,

I didnt know Drew was a maker, as he did not indicate this in his post.

It is not that I don't discuss a knife's ability to do what it is intended for. I can do that.

The reason I focus on the finanical end, as this is most often what I deal with. The majority of the knives are sell are bought for collections or as show pieces. Then down the road I am contacted about either buying or trading for these very same knives.

Collectors and Users are not mutually exclusive. Users come at custom knives from a different mind set than collectors.

I am not an artist or a maker. I deal in the reality of the custom knife market at the time the knife is sold. Whether it be for a collector or a user.

I understand that no one really needs a custom knife. Consequently, I do focus on things such as quality of materials, quality of the maker's work, economic impact in the after makert of a particular style of knife or a knife maker and perhaps the thing that really seperates handmade and factory knives today...Pride in Ownership.

I make no apologies for this.

 
Les :

It is not that I don't discuss a knife's ability to do what it is intended for. I can do that.
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Didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just meant that this forum is a little different than most due to the collector aspect. You don't see many people wondering about the value of a Spyderco clip-it for example, or pondering having to deal with a loss on future trades. It just doesn't make sense when the knife comes out on a regular production line for about $50. This of course is not all the custom forum is about, just one aspect.

-Cliff
 
Hi Cliff,

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate it more than you know.

I meant to edit my previous post but Ill just make the statement here.

Cliff, you are a perfect example of how the internet provides information to allow people to make a judgement on a knife they intend to purchase.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with this story (Cliff please feel free to correct any inaccuracies in the following).

Cliff, duplicated the tests done on the Mad Dog TUSK. He broke two of them. The first one was replaced under Mad Dog's unconditional guarantee. The second he refused to replace as he said Cliff did things to and with his knife they were not meant for (para-phrasing). Again, Mad Dog has a "UNCONDITIONAL GUARANTEE".

The fallout from this lead to a major thread on the Good bad and the Ugly forum.

Because of this one act by Mad Dog, not honoring his guarentee. It showed many what this man is about. Consequently, it has cost him thousands of dollars in lost orders.

This is due directly to Cliff, Blade Forums and the power of the internet.

Currently, there is an individual trying to sell a TUSK. Unfortunately, when he does sell it, this will be at a loss.

Cliff, even though the economic end of the business is not your main concern. You have had a profound negative effect on Kevin's cash flow. While saving many of your collector's/user friends, thousands of dollars in hard earned money. That possibly would have otherwise been spent on a product that the maker does not fully back.

Les
 
I'm really glad there are multiple moderators now. It's good to see that other people have the power to close a thread when the threads own moderator gets ugly.

We all just witnessed how Les insulted many people, and broke Bladefourms most basic rule.

It's good that you are seeing a doctor Les, but you're not quite cured yet. Maybe you can take leave and return when you are sane.

Tim, grow up. You had your time.
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Les, you need to grow up. And I surely hope that one day you would have had your time.

Take some advice Les, learn to treat others with a little more respect. And maybe they'll do the same to you.

How many customs do I own? None. If the number of knives I own is an indication of whether you should give me respect enough to not insult me whenever I say something you don't agree with, then that's your problem.

Sorry for this ugly post but I felt somebody had to say something. Les insulted many of my friends. I just couldn't stand for it.

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Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

[This message has been edited by JoHnYKwSt (edited 24 September 1999).]
 
Maybe some posters should take their own advise before they post. Hmmmmm, why didn't I.
 
Well here goes.
There are quite a few posts here from friends that have been made over the net and in person. I do not know Tim, but I am familiar with his fine work. I feel he makes some of the best folders out there especially interframes and if you have been looking for a nice one you would do well to consider his work before you made a final decision. Tim, I am looking forward to meeting you (maybe next year at the AKI).

The point I would like to make is that there are quite a few people out there with different tastes. When someone purchases a hand made knife lets face it, it is somewhat of a luxury. For me, I get more enjoyment from the knives I have hanging around than any other inanimate object I own. The decision to own a maker’s work is a personal one for me. The chance to have input on the design of the knife is important to me at the same time I feel strongly that that input must be centered on the understanding of what will get the maker just as excited about the project as you. I would rather not go forward with a project if my input does not mesh well with the maker’s style or what they want to do.

I do not think it would be too much of a stretch for anyone one of us to open our minds a little more as far as appreciating fine work in “any category”. Just because a knife has been embellished, and designed as an “art knife” does not mean that it is not well made with an attention to overall toughness. Some of these knives are made by folks who make one knife at a time, and it might take months to complete the knife before they start on another. These people will not make a piece of *(&@#$&% for you. Check some of them out and you will see.

Some of the finest knives I have handled are of the tactical classification. Check out a Pardue button lock, one of Ken Onions if you can find one at a show, one of Kit Carson’s, Darrel’s Krait or Apogee, one of Joel Chamblins, Randy Gilbreth’s (that guy has been making “tacticals” before they were “tacticals”) and others and you will see.

Just because you do not collect it, make it or work with it does not mean the work can not be appreciated and enjoyed. We have a chance here to learn from each-other and also to let opinions and words spark thoughts and ideas (contrary or in agreement with our own ) that may have not been stumbled upon yet and that enhance our knowledge and enjoyment of a “hobby”, “business” or “passion” that is a part of our lives.

I am not real sure that the sniping serves much of a beneficial purpose. Reread this thread and try to ignore the personal stuff; for me it sure makes a much better thread and everyones point still comes across crystal clear although some of the posts are shortened considerably.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 24 September 1999).]
 
Oh Johnny,

I don't think Ill be able to sleep. Please forgive me for offending your delicate nature.

There, all better now!

 
OK That's it, this thread is closed. It has deteriorated to nothing more than diatribe, name calling and insults, and that falls well below the standards we set.

The question has been brought up again as to whether Les has the ability to moderate this forum. I will not make this decision; nor will Spark. I have emailed the advisory board to look at this thread and to make that decision.

I have to much going on right now to devote this much attention to one particular forum. To those who have emailed me about this thread, I have not responded to you directly. The above referal to the advisory board is my response to you.

The original question on this post has yet to be fully explored. Please feel free to start another thread and this time NO PERSONAL ATTACKS FROM ANYONE PLEASE!

I will also change the name of this forum effective immediately; it will now be called the Custom and Handmade Knife Forum.

Here is my definition of a Custom or Handmade knife. My definition is the one we will use so we can move on from this subject. You can debate it later but for now we need to get past this issue.

Custom or Handmade knife:
Any knife which is made entirely by one individual. It makes no difference to me if the knife has been laser cut, water cut, CNC milled, hand ground or cut with a light sabre by Darth Vader himself. The primary work on the knife must be by one individual regardless of the machinery he uses or operates to make it.

End of story this thread is closed! Now let's move back on track and act accordingly.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 
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