Are Tacticals Really Custom Knives?

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Tim,
Using the custom boot idea. Even if you change the leather, shine, heels, and all, it still started as a pair of boots with a design that already existed.

Hmmm, sounds kinda like someone ordering one of my standard knives and me putting whatever the handles, blade steel, blade style, and size that they want. That customer sure considers it a custom knife.

This topic sure has stayed more civil than some in the past on this same subject. <G>
 
Tim,

Sadly, you are one of those very talented knifemakers that the majority who currently buy knives have no clue who you are.

Yes Tim, the market is currently being driven by tactical type knives. Want proof, I direct your attention to Tactical Knives...the magainze. This does not mean that it will not change. Ten years ago the market was being driven by high dollar interframe folders.

As for "art knives" I havent seen the first issue of Art Knives, ...the magazine, have you?

Tim, lets look at your following statement:

"But I have been an artist all my life and it is just a part of me so I think i will just continue making my knives as there are true collectors still out there that appreciate mine and others artistic works without whining over their return on their investment. I think I will look into
art galleries and other markets where the "dealers" look at things artistically instead
of materials and hourly wages".

So you think that it is a bad thing that people who spend thousands of dollars with you should not expect your work to maintain it's value or perhaps increase? Wow, do your customers know you feel this way?

So, I also gather that you feel those who make their knives and do take into consideration their time and materials are not artists? Exactly how do you arrive at the cost of one of your knives?

Tim, you and I have never met. You don't know me, and your predjuice against dealers is very evident for all to see.

This is probably based on the fact that few if any dealers contact you about buying knives from you. This has been my experience in the past. Most of the makers that whine the loudest about dealers are the one's the dealers don't buy from.

Next time your at a big show look and see how many of your knives are on dealers tables. Most (if not all) are interframes from a decade ago (which these dealers in private would tell you that they cannot give them away). Don't worry about paper and pen, you will be able to easily count the number with your two hands.

If you feel you have a market for these knives, please contact me and I will give you the names of these dealers who Im sure would love to sell you back your knives. You could sell them to your customers at a very good price and make everyone happy.

But we know you won't do this. Why, because you don't have any customers for your stainless steel interframe folders.

Tim, come on prove me wrong. Give me the names of these buyers and I will guarentee that the dealers will ship them free of charge to your customers.

Feel free to post the names here or you can email me off line. Ill be waiting!

Tim as for getting a job, I have one. Im very good at it. Tim this will hurt your sensitive artist feelings, but more people who buy custom knives know who I am than who you are.

The main reason for this is that I get a lot of exposure, both for myself and the makers I work with.

Tim the reality is that you are frustrated at the current market. TomW made the statement that Fred Carter is forced to make tactical knives to survive. I wasn't there, but I dont think anyone held a gun to Fred's head.

Fred, unlike you Tim, realizes that even an artist must be able to show flexibility in his skills. Fred is not only known for one of the best makers in the world, he is also known by a large audience because of his tactical knives as well as his work with a factory.

Tim, grow up. You had your time. Now either show some versatility or as you say, find another vocation.

Tim, one last thought. Most people don't appreciate art, nor does most art appreciate until the artist is dead!

Smiles everyone, Smiles!
 
TomW,

Youve caught me in a bad mood. So here we go, more babble from the wind bag.

Just who are you. You hide behind your non-exsistant email address.

Ok, I've got 30 seconds to kill. Impress me with every contribution you have made to custom knives, other than buying one.

Take your time, you have 25 seconds.

 
I may have to use this term loosely but, GENTLEMEN, please take off the gloves NOW, or I willclose this thread. Les, as a moderator you are supposed to be curbing exactly what you are doing. This is an important topic to all of us, regardless if we are dealers, collectors, makers, or casual observers. This is a place where EVERYONE can say what they like. Lets keep the talk on knives not each other. Thank you.

------------------
Howard A. Faltz, Owner
Arizona Knife Source
"Keep it Sharp"
Luke 22:26
www.azknife.com
 
Artists have always supported themselves by doing commissioned pieces, with the customers having at least some influence on the finished work. Being able to practice your art to make a living is a remarkable accomplishment, and if many of todays makers are “forced” to do vanity work to please the popular trends and customer demand, then they are in excellent company.

------------------
~James


 
Boy, there is so much going on here it seemed like a good time to chime in.

First I have been an Art dealer for the last 23 years. In the last 5 years I have added custom knives to my inventory. I do a few knife shows and work with Art galleries in NY to show custom knives.

Today basiclly when you use the word custom knives one usully means a hand made knife.

If a maker makes a knife many times it can still be a work of art. Prints in general and bronzes are done in editions. If an Artist makes it then it's art. Like in everything there is good art and bad.

The reason a real knife dealer asks for a discount form a maker is because the in a market place of knives he trys to sell the knife for the same price the maker does.

As far as things going up in value there is no garantee. knives go up and go down.

There are still people buying interframes it's not the late 80's but I sell a bunch still. It is all relative what a bunch is, this year I probably sold 50.

It's a big world out there and there is alot going on out side the knife world.

Just my 2 cents

Gary Levine
 
Thank you ,Howard, for your voice of reason.
Everybody should be able to post their opinions in this forum for the exchange of ideas and information without that opinion being undermined
by self proclaimed experts. To lose the knowledge of some of the knifemakers, dealers, or collectors that come here would be a loss for everybody.
 
Tim,

I forgot to say I think the knives you make are great. I have sold a number on the secondary market. I am sad that you think all dealers are blood suckers. The knife business is not an easy one, not for the maker or the dealer. It's nice if we can work for the same goal,to better the the knife business.

Gary Levine
 
Mr. Robertson,

Please stop "calling" other folks on their credentials - this is a place for everyone to discuss their opinions, and folks should be judged by the merit of their arguments, not by their knife background. I concur that some folks have little or no reasoning in what they say, but can't we criticize that instead of questioning their experience?

I frequently find myself in arguments where I'll say "Blade X has poor geometry because it has shallow grinds, thick bladestock, and a chunky edge." Instead of countering this reasoning, someone will say "I jumped out of a C-130 and I like it." Rather than respond to my reasoning, they appeal to their own authority. But for their experience to have merit, it must also have shown them some reasoning that counters mine or shows it to be flawed in basis. This is how I feel watching folks argue with you.

You ask: "Impress me with every contribution you have made to custom knives, other than buying one."

Couldn't I just as well ask you what you've contributed other than buying and selling them? Designing some, yes. But making them yourself? How many?

Does your answer affect the validity of your reasoning? Not at all. Many of your arguments are valid, regardless of whether they were made by an experienced dealer such as yourself or by a complete novice.

Your experience is a great boon to this community, but not all questions require you to draw upon it. There is a fine line between answering questions and playing the oracle. There is a fine line between moderating and being the ultimate authority. Does this make sense?

Please take this post in the spirit in which I write it - as a constructive criticism for perhaps the most knowledgeable knife "insider" we have on these boards.

-Drew
 
I have a lot going on right now so I will digest this thread tonight. A warning from me that is simple, direct and to the point.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and they can express their views here. However one must respect anothers right to their very own opinion and although they can maintain their ground they do not need to force feed their views down someone elses throat.

In others words chill out!

Have fun but not at the expense of others and make sure that all that is between the lines here is the white background we choose for this forum
smile.gif


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 
I havent posted in some time...new baby, other one just turned 2 = little time and no sleep.

Here goes i cant resist-

At the next major knife show i say we all pitch in and rent a 18' x 18' ring and have a Ultimate Fighting style competition between whoever wants to settle stuff!

We could call it "The End of Discussion"!!

Any how,all kidding aside, I hope you dont close this thread Howard, or Mike for that matter. Howard i never even saw you make a post then all of a sudden your a moderator...???

I think all parties that have replied to this post have good points. (although weve beat this topic into the cracks a number of times).
 
Guys: What fun reading this forum!!

But, once again, there are "Handmade knives", which can either be "custom" or "standard" models. These are made with a minimum of pre-fabbed parts and are primarily held in the maker's hand during fabrication.
To many, "custom" implies some specific customer input to the design which either alters it from a standard model or creates a unique piece.(RE: webster's dictionary)
Then, you can have "benchmade" or semi-production, with semi-production implying significant use of NC machinery or multiple people working in the shop.
And, I do suppose you could argue that a handmade standard model from a custom maker could be considered "benchmade"-but, if I ask the customer what he's using the knife for, and alter perhaps the edge thickness, sharpening angle or Rc hardness to best suit his need, havn't I created a "custom"?

Just my splash of JP4
smile.gif


RJ Martin
 
Hey Gary
I still buy interframes as long as their not bead blasted. ;-) What do you have?
Will you be at E.Windsor? Give me a good price you know i'm a cheapskate. :-)
 
Drew,

When someone contridicts anyone in a debate type atmoshphere, credentials have to be established. It allows those in the discussion to establish a common bond from which to start.

TomW says I am a self proclaimed expert. As usual he is only half right.

My credentials are known to most on this forum. Should you wish to do further research feel free to read my bio on my web site.

I don't make knives as I have no mechanical ability at all. No kidding ask my wife. The last thing we need in the custom knife market is another lousy knife maker!

Drew, I only ask for credentials when people come and spout things which are not the truth or are outdated.

Many of the things that are written on forums such as this and in magazines are taken as gospel. So when someone is given a fourm, whether here or in a magazine, you should question their credentials. Could I write an article on the making of a custom knife, of course, as could you. Does this mean we really know what its like, no.

This is why I do not address the actual making of a knife. I leave that to the experts, such as Kit Carson, RJ Martin and Tim Herman. Three very capable makers how have posted on this thread.

However, when it comes to the current status of today's custom knife market. I think I know as much as anyone out there. Only because I live it every day.

Perhaps you are correct that I do take on the role of Oracle at times. My meaning is well placed. Drew, I get phone calls every day from people wanting to sell knives. More times then not, Im the one that get's to tell them, they got ripped off. I don't relish this role.

So if I come across as giving too much information it is for this reason. People need as much information as they can get before they purchase a knife.

If something I write saves someone from buying the wrong knife one time. That person saves hundreds of dollars. This is not 10 10 321 where you are going to save a buck or two.

Drew I appreciate your comments. I will take them into account.

Guys, I have this mental defect, a character flaw if you will. If you try and jump on me I will respond in kind. Moderator or not. I have never been known for being passive.

The Doctor's say Im getting much better.

Custom Knife Fourmites, I may come on strong at times. But the questions you have and the mistakes you have made and will make. I have already made those mistakes. My goal is to keep you from doing the same.

 
I'll try to make a more rational post than last time.

Regarding custom knives.

While some makers (I assume a small number) make their knives without the benefit of water jet or laser cut blanks, frames, hanles, etc., it seems that the majority do use such equipment. Fine with me.

What we're left with then is a hand ground blade, hand assembly and maybe hand finishing (ti handles are frequently blasted) to define a custom.

A few months back a big deal was made about Chris Reeve not grinding his own blades and therefore they should be considered manufactured rather han custom. Other custom dealers picked upon this idea and began labeling sebenzas as manufactured.

But sebenzas are made the same way described above. The blades are hand ground by someone that Chris believes to be competent. And I certainly haven't heard anything negative about the quality of the work. Therefore, I consider them to be custom. For a dealer to pronounce them as not custom is merely his opinion.

The fact that Chris makes some knives himself to maintain his standing in the ABS or whatever is simply playing by their rules. And their rules do not define a custom either. The status of the sebenza has nothing to do with their rules.

It's the ELU's opinion that defines it, not someone else's opinion.

I sometimes wonder if this practice is occurring with other makers, and we do not know.

No accusation here, but just by way of example, consider Nealy's knives. Nice knives. A couple of guys, Chavar and Meerdink are now making their own customs. And both they and custom dealers are quick to say that they apprenticed under Nealy. Does that mean they were just shaping G10 handles (of what value is that?), or could it be that they were grinding some blades which were sold.

Enough for tonight.



------------------
Regards,
Ron Knight

Yeah I'm crazy, but what do you want me to do about it
 
Les,

As usual you twist around what i say to make me look like a dumbass and you the brilliant one. This will be my last post here because this is crap! You keep telling TomW to do his
homework, maybe you should practice what you preach?
ok here goes.....
Tim, lets look at your following statement:

"But I have been an artist all my life and it is just a part of me so I think i will just
continue making my knives as there are true collectors still out there that appreciate
mine and others artistic works without whining over their return on their investment. I think I will look into art galleries and other markets where the "dealers" look at things artistically instead
of materials and hourly wages".

So you think that it is a bad thing that people who spend thousands of dollars with you should not expect your work to maintain it's value or perhaps increase? Wow, do your
customers know you feel this way?

I did not say it was a bad thing! I said true collectors do NOT solely look at a return on their investment as there main protocol for buying high end knives. Sure I expect my work to appreciate in value but that is not the main reason nor should it be for them to buy.
Whereas you seem to think that is the utmost priority for buying expensive knives. Learn to read what people write, les.

you say...
As for "art knives" I havent seen the first issue of Art Knives, the magazine, haveyou?

Who even mentioned an "art Knives" magazine and what would that matter??

you say...
Tim, you and I have never met. You don't know me, and your predjuice against dealers is very evident for all to see.
This is probably based on the fact that few if any dealers contact you about buying
knives from you. This has been my experience in the past. Most of the makers that whine the loudest about dealers are the one's the dealers don't buy from.

I have no predjudice against dealers in general, I work still with a couple reputable ones. the FACT is, les, I dont wish to sell to many dealers as I dont make that many knives per year and yes I know as a fact some dealers reamed good customers badly over the
upper end interframes. Dealers do influence the market to their advantage to make profits
on makers they like to work with and keep the values up. I am not whining a bit, les, as I
just rarely work with dealers now.

you say...
Next time your at a big show look and see how many of your knives are on dealers tables. Most (if not all) are interframes from a decade ago (which these dealers in private would tell you that they cannot give them away). Don't worry about paper and pen, you will be able to easily count the number with your two hands.
If you feel you have a market for these knives, please contact me and I will give you
the names of these dealers who Im sure would love to sell you back your knives. You could sell them to your customers at a very good price and make everyone happy. But we know you won't do this. Why, because you don't have any customers for your stainless steel interframe folders.

I rarely see any of my interframes on dealers
tables at shows. And if I have no customers mr. knife god, why do i not have any trouble selling all I make? Since as you say you have never met me how on earth do you think you know I have no customers?? jesus its funny because I sure don't have any interframes form a decade ago laying around here! And counting with only my two hands the number I see of my knives on dealers tables tells me
thats better than seeing 100 of tha same looking tacticals on theirs AND the makers tables.

you say...
Tim, come on prove me wrong. Give me the names of these buyers and I will guarentee
that the dealers will ship them free of charge to your customers.

I would not lower myself to give you any of my customers names, sorry. Where is it you see all these interframes of mine on dealers tables?? I sure haven't seen any at the shows I attend.

you say...
Tim as for getting a job, I have one. Im very good at it. Tim this will hurt your sensitive
artist feelings, but more people who buy custom knives know who I am than who you are.

Undoubtedly they do. Barkers full of themselves acting as THE authority on any subject gets well known. I am rather quiet and shy at shows and don't market myself well
I know, and don't try and come off as the all
knowing wiz.

you say...
Tim the reality is that you are frustrated at the current market. TomW made the statement that Fred Carter is forced to make tactical knives to survive. I wasn't there, but I dont think anyone held a gun to Fred's head.

So now you are a psychiatrist too?? I am not frustrated at all.
I was the one commenting on Fred Carter, again you twist everything around to suit yourself. I talked with Fred at the East Coast show 2 years ago about his tacticals and his comments to me are between him and me
therefore none of your business but you seem to know it all anyway.

you say...
Tim, grow up. You had your time. Now either show some versatility or as you say, find
another vocation.
Tim, one last thought. Most people don't appreciate art, nor does most art appreciate
until the artist is dead!

I am grown up unfortunately. I had my time?
I am going to have another time too
wink.gif

Most people don;t appreciate art?? How lame can you get, les? Art museums and art galleries going out of business nowadays? Cuz tactical knives have taken over that market too? What a completely stupid statement.

And I am showing great versatility this year again but you cut my new designs down too without knowing a thing about them or me!
Oh I forgot, you know all the upcoming trends and what will sell and what won't.
What did I do to you, les, that from my first days here in the forums that you insult me and my work?? You have done nothing but badmouth me and so this will be my last post
here as you obviously don't read them right anyway and I sure don't need this treatment from someone having no idea about me as a person or an artist. So mr. know it all...
have a good day. and thank you so much for all your insults.



[This message has been edited by HermanKnives (edited 24 September 1999).]
 
Tim, you are a vital part of this forum. Please don't abandon your following. Your input is of a unique nature and very much appreciated. As for Larry. I spoke to him today. Along with that number, CALL COLLECT!!
Just kidding Larry (NOT). Larry is a great guy and knifemaker.
Guys. Play nice (2nd, and last time)or out comes the plug on the sandbox. Personal conflicts belong off forum. 'Nuff said? Play nice

------------------
Howard A. Faltz, Owner
Arizona Knife Source
"Keep it Sharp"
Luke 22:26
www.azknife.com
 
Well said, Howard.

Folks, this is a complex topic, which has unfortunately brought out some tempers. I'm extremely disappointed in a few of you for reacting the way you have. I should not have to come in after one of the moderator team has already asked for cooler heads to prevail. Let's chill out here, and discuss things calmly and civilly. If you can't, don't join in the discussion.

Spark


------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
What the hell is going on here? Is the purpose of this forum for the moderator to drive away the worlds best knifemakers in order to promote the work of the knifemakers whose bead blasted knives he sells while feeding his inflated ego? Somebody stick a pin in his head before we have to change the name of this from custom to cord wrapped.
 
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