Are the Chinese eating the USA's lunch in knives? (no jingoistic intent)

[ferider]

I just purchased an Eafengrow EF335 Folding Knives D2 Blade and G10 Handle,5 inch Closed EDC Pocket Folding Knife with Clip (orange) on Amazon for under $30 dollars. I admit that I am no blademeister but the fit and finish "appeared" scary good. When I held it in my hands and played with it I thought of knives that cost 5 to 6 times as much. Tell me what I'm missing, Please tell me

I have accumulated many nice items over the years including fixed, folding and automatic. Besides the juvenile thrill of the purchase I was always looking for that perfect user. I think I have found it: Reate Exo. It meets every perceived need of mine. Candidly, I really no longer have a rotation. My main concern is avoid ruining the edge not using it but its sharpening. Spoken like a neophyte!

OP, how does your EF335 compare to your grail in F&F and usability, the Reate Exo ? Is there a difference when comparing the two Chinese knives ?

 

[AMR11]

You can find budget price points with USA made quality if you look. Similar handle and blade material. One fact known is, outsourcing based on price for a cheaper blade in (m390) "204p, 20cv" ECT.. Whatever floats your boat. "Value for the money". Even a basic steel like 52100 will and has out performed powder steels if you're not getting a good heat treat for optimum performance out of that steel. Video proof is out there. Example: Both 20cv. PM2 vs WE Elementum. I'm taking the Spyderco.

 

[Danke42]

Yeah but people are talking about Chinese knives in general along these lines. That's why I made a point about differentiating.

BTW, you can see me trashing Eafengrow in some of those links. I talked about them a few posts ago here too. AFAIK, they are a rebranding distributor that doesn't actually manufacture anything. They just buy what they think will sell at a profit and stamp the blades with whatever steel identity they think will sell at the target price. (The main exception is when Eafengrow acted as the sole distributor for CH Knives in the west, but that no longer seems to be the case.)

Feels like that take is just "whataboutism" The OP took a stance that a knife from a terrible source is the best. That argument is built on a foundation of sand.

 

[minimag03]

I would have never spent thousands of dollars on US-made knives if I had not started off with cheaper but high quality Kizer and Civivi knives.

 

[Sagandavis]

China is definitely knocking it out of the park for bang for the buck but I wouldn’t say they are eating anyone’s lunch. They seem to be the best at listening to what modern knife enthusiasts value and putting it into affordable pieces.

I don’t personally but cutlery from China but have handled quite a few and am really impressed with the FnF and overall quality for the price.

I think it’s a good thing for the industry because it will force American (and other countries) companies to step up their game. Competition gives best results to end consumers. Yay capitalism

 

[AMR11]

Everyone starts somewhere, we live and we learn. I'm guilty. As a young kid I would walk to the mall with friends get food, go into the little china shop where this man would sell me knives, throwing stars, grappling hooks, swords. You name it. I got suckered being 14-15yrs old. You buy knife, $20 dolla, $20 dolla, you buy knife $20 dolla. I still hear him to this day in my head Next ya know I had a collection of about 25 to 30 pieces of junk that would just break. Knowing what I know now. I could have just bought quality once and probably would have it to this day. We're all not made of money. I wouldn't exactly call kizer or civivi high quality. Heard fair complaints about both, as well as Benchmade/Spyderco. Sure they are better than just buying the stuff at your local Walmart. I thought about purchasing the civivi conspirator or cogent. Most of the blade steel they use are sandvik or a variation of it, so what would be the point? If you're coming from a budget stand point on this topic why would not just buy a Mora for $15 same steel! If I'm gonna be buying a swedish steel that better be made in Sweden. As for me I just can't do it. If money is an issue, save your money and buy quality once. It's not an issue to exactly where they came from, it's the overall quality of the product from which it came and the heat treat of the steel that's offered. For me at least. I'd blow my money on one cruwear manix vs 3 budgets in d2 or sandvik. Makes no sense if it'll be out performed in every aspect if you're actually using it. There's a saying for that! "Quality over quantity"

 

[Pirate63]

Depends on the "lunch". Chicom knives are a mixed bag generally speaking. I have several that are well made and I enjoy using, but as others have stated its hard to know if the steel advertised is what the blade is really made with. Eafengrow for example was caught a while back using steel for knives that was not what they were advertising.

 

[calm]

I am reminded of the Chinese owned Volvo

 

[K.O.D.]

OP, how does your EF335 compare to your grail in F&F and usability, the Reate Exo ? Is there a difference when comparing the two Chinese knives ?

Gotta admit, I don't think I'd ever consider a Chinese knife a "grail."

I am reminded of the Chinese owned Volvo

Or India owned Jaguar/Land Rover.

 

[calm]

Tata, that Top Gear used to make fun of....

 

[mitchnola]

China is definitely knocking it out of the park for bang for the buck but I wouldn’t say they are eating anyone’s lunch. They seem to be the best at listening to what modern knife enthusiasts value and putting it into affordable pieces.

I don’t personally but cutlery from China but have handled quite a few and am really impressed with the FnF and overall quality for the price.

I think it’s a good thing for the industry because it will force American (and other countries) companies to step up their game. Competition gives best results to end consumers. Yay capitalism

Or it will just force more outsourcing which is unfortunately more likely do to the fact of how better quality will come at cheaper prices. Be careful what ya wish for.

 

[Blues]

Let's stay on topic fellas...

 

[sgt1372]

But is General Tso’s chicken really a Chinese dish?

There's actually a Wiki article on this and, while the dish "may" have real Chinese origins, it is a decidedly Chinese-American dish served mainly to White people in mainly White communities who like sweet dishes.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Tso's_chicken

Same applies to sweet/sour pork and "egg foo young" which you will NEVER seen served at a Chinese American banquet.

PS: And, FWIW, like it or not, China (Mainland & Taiwan) have been "eating the USA's lunch" in many areas for many years, not just knives.

 

[Sagandavis]

Or it will just force more outsourcing which is unfortunately more likely do to the fact of how better quality will come at cheaper prices. Be careful what ya wish for.

Recent trends make me think otherwise. Knives and EDCs are so “in” right now that of course we will see more players in the game, domestically and globally. But many American companies who have heavily outsourced the last 2-3 decades are realizing that a lot of their customers are more inclined to buy USA made, even at big increase in price. Schrade, Buck, Kershaw, CRKT etc. they are all offering more US made knives then in years past

 

[Chronovore]

Feels like that take is just "whataboutism" The OP took a stance that a knife from a terrible source is the best. That argument is built on a foundation of sand.

Relax. This is a natural conversation that has moved to the broader topic.

I think it’s a good thing for the industry because it will force American (and other countries) companies to step up their game.

Agreed and that would be my hope. I'm interested in more discussion about potential examples versus normal innovation.

Aside from recent American releases you mentioned, I feel like we've been seeing gains in new OEM work being done in China, such as with MBK or Olight using Kizer.

The point about the better Chinese companies responding well and listening to the community is a big deal. I've made the point that some of the companies outsourcing and sticking with 8Cr13Mov, etc.; have been at least partially sustained by protected positions like the Walmart knife counter where those better Chinese brands like Civivi/Sencut are not represented. I've long hoped that more people shopping online would help and yes, Kershaw and others are using more Chinese D2, but innovation remains frustratingly slow in those lines.

I thought about purchasing the civivi conspirator or cogent. Most of the blade steel they use are sandvik or a variation of it, so what would be the point? If you're coming from a budget stand point on this topic why would not just buy a Mora for $15 same steel!

You are thinking of 12C27. There is a big difference between 12C27 and 14C28N. The former is okay but the latter continues to be one of the best budget steels used in knives under $100, especially when run a little harder. If you like a particular design from Civivi in that steel, give it a shot.

 

[coolbreezy37]

There some We, Civivi, and Kizer knives that I’d absolutely love to try.

 

[Danke42]

This is a natural conversation that has moved to the broader topic.

Relax, this behaviour foundational to whataboutism.

 

[Blues]

Does viewing this conversation on a laptop built in China skew the results? (Asking for...oh, who am I kidding?)

Relax...everyone. Somewhere within these pages the truth lies.

(If the truth can be thought of as lying.)

 

[Chronovore]

I couldn't agree more about chinese D2 being a much better budget steel than 8cr13mov. I'm a cheap beater pocket knife kind of guy because I straight up abuse my pocket knives... all of my expensive knives are custom fixed blades where wood is the main cutting medium. I own both petrified fish and one in house ganzo design in d2. The fit and finish was shockingly good, the grind... not so much. They run their D2 hard, probably around 62hrc.. it will micro chip but that's to be expected on any hard d2 with a thin edge.

Definitely not the greatest or purest D2, the ganzo came with what looked like heated oil marks in the finish of the flats. Things like grain refinement etc, is anyone's guess... but like you said, as a bankable upgrade from 8cr13mov (I carried a tenacious for years) the difference is very noticeable in terms of retention. Wouldn't put it up against american D2, but hard to be for a $30 budget abuse knife. Both are rock solid in terms of construction.

I love american made, I support it whenever I can and would never buy chinese for 90% of products, but folding knives specifically seem to be ok. I'm just not able to abuse a $200 folder like I can a sub $50 folder... which is exactly what I do with the knife I have on me at all times, use it for all kinds of things I shouldn't.

While I appreciate people beating on a CRK, etc.; I'm guilty of waning to keep nice things nice. I use budget knives for dirty work. Budget knives have also been an invitation for me to explore knife modification.

A big part of the controversy with Chinese D2 was falling very short of American or other D2. I think we've discussed this elsewhere but potential issues range from consistency or purity of the steel itself to issues in mass-production heat treatment. Especially with thinner edges taken out past 1000 grit, Chinese D2 struggles to compete with a lot of the better budget stainless that can be available at similar prices.

That's the thing. Petrified Fish isn't perfect but for $30-35, they're incredible. That's where a more reasonably done Chinese D2 can really shine.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

While I appreciate people beating on a CRK, etc.; I'm guilty of waning to keep nice things nice. I use budget knives for dirty work. Budget knives have also been an invitation for me to explore knife modification.

A big part of the controversy with Chinese D2 was falling very short of American or other D2. I think we've discussed this elsewhere but potential issues range from consistency or purity of the steel itself to issues in mass-production heat treatment. Especially with thinner edges taken out past 1000 grit, Chinese D2 struggles to compete with a lot of the better budget stainless that can be available at similar prices.

That's the thing. Petrified Fish isn't perfect but for $30-35, they're incredible. That's where a more reasonably done Chinese D2 can really shine.

I would imagine that companies like petrified fish, ganzo (the name of civivi's budget sister company escapes me) have produced so very many knives in their D2 that they have a pretty good handle on making it "good enough". As you say, especially for the money... it's crazy value for x tool.

Weirdly enough, the idea of chinese fixed blade puts me off completely.