Are the new steels really better?

Mack

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My bug out bag has two knives. An early 80s Gerber command II and a SOG seal pup.
I have nothing to complain about with either knife.
That said, are the new steels, new blades, better than my Gerber?
Have there been any good tests showing the facts?
Is it all opinion? If so, in my opinion I need more knives!



Mack
Beware the Candiru!
 
They aren't, there are no good or bad steels. Every steel has it's purpose, and its pros and cons, depending on what it's purpose is, and what you want to make out of it. Tool? Knife? Dagger? Sword?

High-carbon steel is great for making dies and cutting tools because of its great hardness and brittleness. Low- or medium-carbon steels are great for sheeting and structural forms because of its ease to welding and tooling. Aluminum steel is smooth. Stainless teels are strong and resist abrasion and corrosion because of the high chromium content.Etc. etc.

Knife manufacturers often want to make you believe that only the newest, baddest steel will cut it, but that's just a sales pitch. Heat treatment and proper tempering are often more important that the new "miracle steel".
 
I've had more troubles out of newer "super" steels (sharpening, edge holding etc) than praises. I prefer a properly heat treated high carbon steel blade over any of them. 1080, 1095 or O-1 please.
 
There are opposing views, but the opposition really hinges on semantics. Here is how to conceptually visualize it: steels have definitely improved, by specializing.

While every steel does indeed have its pro and cons, it would be absurd to say new steel technology are just cheap marketing parlor tricks. You have to understand the improvement process, which really is specialization.

Pick a use: say, small EDC utility knives. The steels today in that specialized field will have in fact beaten out the older ones - D2 or ZDP-189 when treated properly and bevelled to the blade geometry necessary will rust less, pit less, and hold a cardboard-cutting edge much longer than say, 1095. And since corrosion and utility-edge-holding are the dominant traits of a small EDC knife, it's not hard to say that the steel has improved in this regard. For machete-like choppers, INFI will again corrode less and hold a longer edge than 1095. For diving knives, well, 1095 can't even touch salt water uncoated, while H1 will only laugh at the feeble attempt.

Now, has modern steels beaten tried'n'true steels in every single regard? No; carbon steels are tougher under impact, chip less, and have higher edge stability than modern stainless steels. They are also less expensive, which allow the manufacturer to spend more effort on improving the knife than buying the raw material. Does that make modern steels cheap marketing tricks designed to scam customers out of their money? Hell no, that would be nostagic technophobia. It's like claiming that bronze has better toughness under impact, and therefore steel hasn't really "beaten" bronze. Well, sure, semantically, but for all intents and purposes of modern knives, steel has indeed beaten bronze, and you wouldn't catch me EDCing a bronze knife any time soon.

Individual people have great preferences as to which aspect of steel they prioritize over the others, which many times causes them to choose old steel over new ones, and that is great if it was in fact an informed choice. (And this occurs quite often in this forum, because forum members pay much more attention to steel characteristics than the rest of the public.) You should indeed research what you want in a steel to make a decision.

So are the modern steels better? No one can flat out say that they are better, but they have greatly specialized, allowing you a much greater variety of choices as to what characteristics you want. For most, it would be modern steels over older ones, but the opposite often happens as well, and if the decision was made fully informed about the characteristics of either, that is simply great.

Do not let anyone tell you that one simply sucks more than the other.

Edit:
Cliff has a large page dedicated to the characteristics of blade materials, which you should read often. Also, proper technique, blade geometry, and proper manufacturing of the knife is much more important than the steel composition. The above discussion is only relevant if all other factors are equal.
 
My bug out bag has two knives. An early 80s Gerber command II and a SOG seal pup.
I have nothing to complain about with either knife.
That said, are the new steels, new blades, better than my Gerber?
Have there been any good tests showing the facts?
Is it all opinion? If so, in my opinion I need more knives!



Mack
Beware the Candiru!

Well of course you need more knives! That goes without saying.:D

I have a couple of Gerber knives from the 70's and 80's. The fit and finish was decent. The steel was OK for the time. As far as I know mine were in 440A as I did not have any of the high end line.

I also have knives in VG10, ATS34, AUS8, and AUS10. I much prefer the edge retension of these latter knives compared to that of my earlier Gerbers. Gots no data, just my opinion based on my own experiences using my knives over the past 35 years.
 
Well said, Walt! I'll stick with plain, old carbon steels like 1095 for most uses that I have.
 
Definitely the newer stainless steels are better than the older ones. Whether they are enough better to warrant replacing a good, useful knife, I doubt.
Of course if you must have more knives (don't we all!) then try one (or two, or three, or ...) of the new steels and judge for yourself.
Greg
 
Thanks for all the info.
Yes I am a proficient sharpener. Not as good as I'd like to be but I get the job done.
 
Here is how to conceptually visualize it: steels have definitely improved, by specializing.

That is probably the most important point to keep in mind when considering steels. There is no such thing (in general) as a better steel, only better for a specific set of tasks. Is a fillet knife better than a bowie? Well that is a silly question. The same is true of "Is S30V a better steel than 420HC?" What do you want the steel to do well, what do you not really care about. Once you know the answers to those two questions you can decide which steel would be better for your use.

-Cliff
 
There is one aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet.
Public demand commands what is sought at what price. And, speaking of production knives, it means more expensive steel is expected in more expensive knives and vice versa.
With higher cost (usually) comes higher level of detail of manufacturing steps. And one of these steps is much more important than others - heat treat.
Point is that with "better" (more expensive might be better word :)) steels you can (sort of) expect it has been treated properly. Actually, as most of cheaper (less alloyed steels) don't require as precise HT, cost-oriented knives will give you poor performance not because of "lesser" steel but because of not utilizing what the specific steel can offer due to scamped HT.
 
I've had more troubles out of newer "super" steels (sharpening, edge holding etc) than praises. I prefer a properly heat treated high carbon steel blade over any of them. 1080, 1095 or O-1 please.

Well said, Walt! I'll stick with plain, old carbon steels like 1095 for most uses that I have.

There's nothing wrong with high carbon steels (except rust).
But you're really limiting yourself when it comes to knife selection.

IMO, if you're talking about a small (less than 5") pocket folder, then there are no real advantages offered by a high carbon steel like 1095.
It's not like you're going to be subjecting such a small folder to high impacts.
And nobody likes rust on their knives.
 
Actually, as most of cheaper (less alloyed steels) don't require as precise HT, cost-oriented knives will give you poor performance not because of "lesser" steel but because of not utilizing what the specific steel can offer due to scamped HT.

The heat treatments for the cheaper steels are often simpler but actually tend to require more precision, assuming you want optimal results. The higher alloy steels are often more forgiving to variances because of the carbides preventing excessive grain growth. The hardening responce is also much more forgiving. 1095 for example will diffusion harden very quickly so the window for martensite is actually just seconds to get the steel into the quench. But yes, the point remans very valid, the cheapers steels are often of low performance simply because the heat treatment does not bring out their maximum ability.

-Cliff
 
Protourist: One of the nice things about this forum is that you'll get a super wide variety of comments with respect to your questions. This fact contributes greatly to my personal amusement factor. I can almost guess what the writer will say by having read their previous posts. Sometimes I bet myself what they will say (respond) before glancing at their commentary.

No, you probably don't need more cutlery. The two blades you have are sufficient for many needs and are of reasonable quality.

Yes, there are numerous tests which you can research by using your spare time while sifting through various opinions. Be sure you have enough brew on tap.

And yes, there are better steels for specific purposes. I doubt you'd notice any difference in performance which would radically alter your life, but you can collect other knives and slip deliciously further into the mire of iron addiction having been warned that your two blades were all you needed.
 
What do you want the steel to do well, what do you not really care about. Once you know the answers to those two questions you can decide which steel would be better for your use.

This statement covers about 90% of the steel questions that are so common these days. It's the overlap of properties various steel types possess that can make the choice difficult and contentious at times. Bottom line though is that if something is working for you then it's a good choice, despite the fact someone else finds it lacking for their purposes.
 
Protourist: One of the nice things about this forum is that you'll get a super wide variety of comments with respect to your questions. This fact contributes greatly to my personal amusement factor. I can almost guess what the writer will say by having read their previous posts. Sometimes I bet myself what they will say (respond) before glancing at their commentary.

No, you probably don't need more cutlery. The two blades you have are sufficient for many needs and are of reasonable quality.

Yes, there are numerous tests which you can research by using your spare time while sifting through various opinions. Be sure you have enough brew on tap.

And yes, there are better steels for specific purposes. I doubt you'd notice any difference in performance which would radically alter your life, but you can collect other knives and slip deliciously further into the mire of iron addiction having been warned that your two blades were all you needed.

Very well stated!

-Mack
Beware the Candiru
 
Bottom line though is that if something is working for you then it's a good choice, despite the fact someone else finds it lacking for their purposes.

It would be expected that different people would prefer different properties in knives just like they do in cars. To make good choices you just have to be clear of what you want. That someone else does not want the same is only of academic interest.

-Cliff
 
Those old Gerbers are jewels. I can't attest to the SOG, but I can tell you that a Gerber of that vintage is about as good as a knife comes. When I bought my (very similar to your Command II) Mark II in the 70's, I had a barber supply shop regrind the blade for straight slopes from central spine to the edges. More than 30 years later, it's still a treasure ... takes hair-splitting edges that hold up under all kinds of abuse.

Good luck and stay safe, protourist!
 
IMHO, Cliff Stamp is spot on. It depends on what you're uning it for.

For the purposes that I use a knife for, cutting only, I find that the better tool steels like A-2, and D-2 serve my needs better than any others. I don't like stainless, becuase those I've owned just don't hold an edge as well as I like a knife too. (Although I am sorely tempted to try S30V.)

I don't use a knife for chopping, so chipping of the blade isn't a concern to me. I do have a big Survival-Rescue Knife, of Carbon V that is suitable for chopping, but so far, since I carry a belt-axe, I've never had to use it for that purpose.

Are the new steels better? I think that for my useage, they are. for a person that uses a knife differently than I do, maybe not.
 
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