Are the new steels really better?

I've also got an Ontario spec-8 machete that is shaving sharp and chops extremely well but rusts far too easily. I oil it immediately after use but it still wants to rust. The Gerber and Sog don't have this problem thankfully.
 
protourist said:
My bug out bag has two knives. An early 80s Gerber command II and a SOG seal pup.
I have nothing to complain about with either knife.
That said, are the new steels, new blades, better than my Gerber?
Have there been any good tests showing the facts?
Is it all opinion? If so, in my opinion I need more knives!



Mack
Beware the Candiru!
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Of course they are better. Why else Hitachi and Crucible do all this R&D and came up with Powder Metallurgy technologies, steel purifying methods etc... Unfortunately cuttlery is not their major focus as well as knife manufacturers will not pick real supersteels - like Spyderco rejecy CPM S125V because it to hard to grind (well, except Japanese - they have different job-ethic and produces ZDP knives even they are hard to grind).

But it is hard to argue that 56HRC on average "old steel" can beat 65HRC ZDP-189. I am talking about working hardness when both steel have same britelness.

About tests - my friend cut manila rope with CPM 10V from Phill Willson more then 1000 times, with averade steel under 50 times. But no one will make knives out of it.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
It's about time someone said what Vassili said. I would have said ZDP 189, S90V, cowery x or y, etc. Tell me those aren't better steels than any factory folders from the 70's, 80's and 90's used. That's saying enough about folders. In carbon steels it's not as noticable but there are some super steels that are just not used in knives, but commercial applications. The average user doesn't need a lot of red hardness for a skinning knife.

BTW Vassili, Spyderco isn't the only one refusing to use S125V. Phil Wilson stated he'd rather hit his finger with a hammer than make any more knives out of S125V. That's saying a lot coming from him who routinely makes knives out of 10V. Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
It's about time someone said what Vassili said. I would have said ZDP 189, S90V, cowery x or y, etc. Tell me those aren't better steels than any factory folders from the 70's, 80's and 90's used. That's saying enough about folders. In carbon steels it's not as noticable but there are some super steels that are just not used in knives, but commercial applications. The average user doesn't need a lot of red hardness for a skinning knife.

BTW Vassili, Spyderco isn't the only one refusing to use S125V. Phil Wilson stated he'd rather hit his finger with a hammer than make any more knives out of S125V. That's saying a lot coming from him who routinely makes knives out of 10V. Joe
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This is a wrong approach IMHO. I prefers them rather try to find solution to deliver this super steel to us but not refuse because it can not be done without some changes in technology. Instead of try to came up with new ideas just refuse to accept what modern metallurgy may offer.

Solution is pretty simple and known for milleniums - laminated blades. Just make Laminated blanks with CPM S125V core sandwiched between some steel with similar HT - I do not know let say 154CM. If Crucible able to do this - and it is possible, because this is what Damasteel doing this PM mixes in Europe for five years or more - then american manufacturers can use same old equipment to do grinding out top layers of 154CM if they do not want to invest in new technology.

But now it seems like it is more easy to give up production and their workers salaries to China, because in this case management do not have to do anything at all. So they rather came with this PR about average user do not need super steel and average user not able to sharpen super steel and so on - well average user do not need quality knives and need piece of some steel with serration and this will work for average user for few years without sharpening until he buy another 10 of this knives for $1. This is different market - average knife user will not buy knife from Brand if it is more then $10.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I agree with you in priciple. I want to see a bunch of steels tried out. Hopefully the project started by Sal will give us some mules in at least some of the better steels. His idea was a vote. I'd guess CPM M4 would be the next winner if you look at how many people are calling for it in the thread.

Sal stated about S125V that it was grinding the grinder, not the other way around. Perhaps backing off the vanadium and adding more Tungsten would help.

Vassili, Have you ever tried Vascowear, or it's new incarnation cru-wear?
It's old but it's one mean steel. I love the stuff. It used to have the reputation of being difficult to sharpen but that was before DMT's, 440V, S90V etc. I think it would be accepted better now, but it is admittedly a rust magnet. Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
I would have said ZDP 189, S90V, cowery x or y, etc. Tell me those aren't better steels than any factory folders from the 70's, 80's and 90's used.
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There were always very high carbide steels available like T15 though yes, there seems to be more very high wear stainless steels now. At one point 440C was known as a very high wear stainless.

However, better as always depends on what you want, the ability to hold a very fine edge at a high polish does not come from a very high carbide steel. You get that ability through steels like 1095.

-Cliff
 
nozh2002 said:
This is a wrong approach IMHO. I prefers them rather try to find solution to deliver this super steel to us but not refuse because it can not be done without some changes in technology. Instead of try to came up with new ideas just refuse to accept what modern metallurgy may offer.
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They could do easily but they don't. Why? Mainly because the the vast majority of people would not be willing to pay for it, plain and simple. New technology costs money to implement, a lot of money. If it doesn't make good business sense, i.e. make money, it won't happen.

And it's more than just making money, it has to return more on their investment than the alternatives. If a company can invest $1000 in a certain product and earn a profit of $200, and invest that same $1000 in another and profit $100, which is the better choice? The demand from a small group of enthusiasts such as those of us here rarely justifies the investment you would need. We don't have to like it, that's just the way it is.
 
Blue Sky said:
They could do easily but they don't. Why? Mainly because the the vast majority of people would not be willing to pay for it, plain and simple. New technology costs money to implement, a lot of money. If it doesn't make good business sense, i.e. make money, it won't happen.

And it's more than just making money, it has to return more on their investment than the alternatives. If a company can invest $1000 in a certain product and earn a profit of $200, and invest that same $1000 in another and profit $100, which is the better choice? The demand from a small group of enthusiasts such as those of us here rarely justifies the investment you would need. We don't have to like it, that's just the way it is.
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Again this is reference to the fact that market are thin etc... As I sad majority of the people will not buy knife more then $20 becase market is filled with knives for $10 anyway.

I consider this as a silly excuse by producers who do not whant to do anything but keep it as it is without moving a finger. This way will lead to moving all manufacturing abroad in China because it is cheaper and more profitable - bla, bla bla, while real reason is that you do not need to do too much, but just collect profit for some time few years most then you are out...

Look at Japanese, they perfectly resist this trend and actually lead Americans right way giving people chance to work and make right things like it happen in Kershaw, where under Japanese ownership people like ThomasW, Ken Onion and Tim Galyean and other able to recreate this brand and constantly delivers to the market top high quality blades with exotic steels and most important for low price generating profit same time.

Why - because they just was allowed to do what Americans are good at - innovations promoting! In result there is knives like latest Blur with super steel and very friendly price.

Look also at Spyderco - ZDP Delica price is unbeliveble with top most supersteel. Made in Japan in Seki.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Again this is reference to the fact that market are thin etc... As I sad majority of the people will not buy knife more then $20 becase market is filled with knives for $10 anyway.
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I'm glad you agree with this, it is certainly true.

nozh2002 said:
I consider this as a silly excuse by producers who do not whant to do anything but keep it as it is without moving a finger.
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Cynicism aside, it would take more than "moving a finger" to convert a manufacturing facility to mass-production of knives using a steel such as S125V. It could easily require a commitment of resources that would put a company at risk if it failed. Hardly a "silly excuse" for a successful company to take in order to pursue a tiny market.

I don't know anything about the Japanese-type business model but highly doubt it doesn't include making money, and I think there is danger in talking about "the Japanese" as if they were a single entity. One can only wonder how many Japanese companies have failed at the sort of thing you feel Kershaw has succeeded at.
 
equating higher wear resistance with better is a mistake, imo. too many other factors in production and use to demand a wholesale shift to any particular class of steel and discount all others.
 
I think if your happy with your current knives that you wont need any new ones. New steels may hold their edge a little longer and the steel may be more strong etc but they all just cut stuff. If your knives do what you need then you wont notice a huge difference. Its more of a have thing than a need thing imo. I collect knives so i enjoy to try the new steels =)
 
Blue Sky said:
Cynicism aside, it would take more than "moving a finger" to convert a manufacturing facility to mass-production of knives using a steel such as S125V. It could easily require a commitment of resources that would put a company at risk if it failed. Hardly a "silly excuse" for a successful company to take in order to pursue a tiny market.
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This is not mentality of the nation which dedicated to move forward full speed ahead.

It is "wiser" or "smarter" too keep sitting on your butt, because if you move ahead - "Who knows what kind of danger may waiting for you". Better to keep your domain, better make yourself comfortable with what you already have, this is the way to "happiness". Sleep and relax... sleep... sleep...

But this is not the way modern civilization came to current development.

What may happen - for example tomorrow Friction Forging which is (as I heart) just another implementation of widely used Friction Welding technology with already existed equipment will start producing knives with super-sharp and un-dullable edges in industrial scales and all this "smart" and "wise" successful old companies will have to go to well deserved retirement as it happens already to some.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
This is not mentality of the nation which dedicated to move forward full speed ahead.
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Apples and oranges. You are trying to compare national character with that of a private company. In a socialist system, that may be possible.

nozh2002 said:
It is "wiser" or "smarter" too keep sitting on your butt, because if you move ahead - "Who knows what kind of danger may waiting for you".
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It most certainly is, especially when the risks are unknown and a wrong turn might mean your demise.

nozh2002 said:
But this is not the way modern civilization came to current development.
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Oh, but it is. History is littered with the bones of those who stuck their necks out for no gain, and forgotten them. It's the taking of risks that have a payoff that brings advances.

nozh2002 said:
What may happen - for example tomorrow Friction Forging which is (as I heart) just another implementation of widely used Friction Welding technology with already existed equipment will start producing knives with super-sharp and un-dullable edges in industrial scales and all this "smart" and "wise" successful old companies will have to go to well deserved retirement as it happens already to some.
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Non sequitor. You can't demonstrate the supposed lack of willingness to develop and implement new technologies now, with the speculation that companies may not take advantage of using of an existing technology in a new way in the future.

Incidentally, if friction forging proves to be everything you say, I predict there will be no shortage of companies moving to take advantage of it. The industrial cutting tool market is very large.
 
Blue Sky said:
Oh, but it is. History is littered with the bones of those who stuck their necks out for no gain, and forgotten them. It's the taking of risks that have a payoff that brings advances.
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Well, I really like to see some historical example of successful sitting-on-the-butt civilization.

Thanks, Vassili.

Well, correction - not civilization which considers itself successful but one which really acheaved something. If they all lowers their expectations and so feels happy not really count...
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, I really like to see some historical example of successful sitting-on-the-butt civilization.

Thanks, Vassili.

Well, correction - not civilization which considers itself successful but one which really acheaved something. If they all lowers their expectations and so feels happy not really count...
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It depends on how you define success. Or what "achieved something" means. Each civilisation you can name achieved something :)


In general "money talks". When it will be motivating enough for companies not to "sit on their butts" but to try out everything they can get their hands on :) then you will see what you wish.

Innovations are ALWAYS driven by greed - when you do something to gain competition advantage you don't want to be better, smarter, nicer etc. but you want to make (economic) profit.

And similarly to Darwin's theory of natural selection, this makes "good" innovations live.

I think "successful" civilization means viable civilisation. To achieve best results (=efficiency) you have to be rational.


If you are sure there is great hidden potential in "exotic" steels being used in knives go and make fortune. Let Microsoft and Google be your inspiration :)
 
Actually, I think that if a knife company has tried to work with a new steel and found it not workable with their existing equipment, they would probably invest in some research to find out what it would take. Now, if it is not workable, it is not going to be done. If there was a chance that in doing the research for equipment to handle the new steel, they came across a little know technique or procedure, then they would have to decide if the rewards for investing would be justified. Most of these companies are not small mom and pop business's where Dad say's "Mom, I think we should go for it and make our million". It just doesn't happen that way.
I guess every one has an idea and for every one that makes it, a thousand of them don't. At least that is about the average success of my ideas. :) I am still looking for that other one.
 
IMHO all the new steels offer is better performance in a single field, some are harder, others are abrasion resistant, super carbon free steels that don't rust, the steels aren't much better overall, but they offer better performance in a single field or maybe a couple, but no steel is the ultimate.
 
All very interesting takes. Thanks for your input it of course makes everything as clear as mud but, tells me to find out what is best for me and gowith it.

I keep looking for info on the Gerber command II. The info I see only says "surgical stainless". Is it 440c?
 
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