Are U.S. Knives Really Better?

[Confederate]

China is a growing industrial nation that is undergoing tremendous change. Yes, we all love to see good craftsmanship, but even in Japan it didn't happen as part of the natural evolutionary process. From a marketing, business course site:

In the 1980's and early 1990's, when many large Japanese companies set up manufacturing operations in North America, they suffered from a competitive environment that caused people to think that North American goods were better in quality than Japanese goods. To address this public perception, Japanese companies sought manufacturing methods to produce goods with a very high level of quality so they could penetrate the market. Total Quality Management (TQM) was not invented in Japan, it was invented in the U.S., but it was used by the Japanese very effectively in the 1980's and the term has subsequently become associated with Japanese management principles.

Without similar intervention in China, no one can say for sure which path they'll end up taking. Currently, all the premium quality knives manufactured in China are carefully managed by people trained to oversee all aspects of production, from heat treating to making sure they're all stuffed correctly into their little boxes. What I'm saying is that you can't really remove this oversight and expect the Chinse, on their own, to produce superb products. The Chinese, who even have variations in their language that keeps members of one group from talking to members of another, have even more approaches to work ethics. If TQM, or something like it, doesn't take hold, then it will be a long time before we can expect quality products.

I won't eat anything from China, knowingly. And if I had a choice, I wouldn't buy anything from China. But since the latter can't be avoided, we obviously have to be wary. In short, an American product made in China will usually always be better than a Chinese product made in China.

 

[Razorsharp244]

I agree with some of what you say, I just want to point one thing out.

In short, an American product made in China will usually always be better than a Chinese product made in China.

They are many times made in the same factory, by the same people, using the materials but sold under different brands. These factories are independent and supports several brands + their own. Of course the "quality mark" supplied by the (US/European) brand will ultimatly guarantee the product quality. But side by side it's not easy to see the difference anymore.

 

[HoB]

Benchmade use of good premium steels actually works against its overall strength..... Premium steels, for example, are not generally as strong and as pliant as tougher steels....... If you start hammering premium blades into trees or logs and subject them to rigorous torquing, they're not likely to fare well.

Say, I am still on bladeforums, am I not? I haven't left the site somehow, have I? I didn't think I would ever read something like that in the Reviews section of bladeforums, certainly not from someone who has been around for about two years.......words fail me.

 

[knarfeng]

China is a growing industrial nation that is undergoing tremendous change. Yes, we all love to see good craftsmanship, but even in Japan it didn't happen as part of the natural evolutionary process. From a marketing, business course site:

In the 1980's and early 1990's, when many large Japanese companies set up manufacturing operations in North America, they suffered from a competitive environment that caused people to think that North American goods were better in quality than Japanese goods. To address this public perception, Japanese companies sought manufacturing methods to produce goods with a very high level of quality so they could penetrate the market. Total Quality Management (TQM) was not invented in Japan, it was invented in the U.S., but it was used by the Japanese very effectively in the 1980's and the term has subsequently become associated with Japanese management principles.

Without similar intervention in China, no one can say for sure which path they'll end up taking. Currently, all the premium quality knives manufactured in China are carefully managed by people trained to oversee all aspects of production, from heat treating to making sure they're all stuffed correctly into their little boxes. What I'm saying is that you can't really remove this oversight and expect the Chinse, on their own, to produce superb products. The Chinese, who even have variations in their language that keeps members of one group from talking to members of another, have even more approaches to work ethics. If TQM, or something like it, doesn't take hold, then it will be a long time before we can expect quality products.

I won't eat anything from China, knowingly. And if I had a choice, I wouldn't buy anything from China. But since the latter can't be avoided, we obviously have to be wary. In short, an American product made in China will usually always be better than a Chinese product made in China.

1) Oh Please. The reason Deming taught his TQM principles to the Japanese was that only the Japanese accepted the teachings. American companies told him to go pound sand. America did not "intervene" in Japan. The Japanese listened to an American teacher. Just because it is on a website does not make it true.

2) What data do you have to support this sweeping generalization about the industry of an entire country?

 

[Projek]

China is a growing industrial nation that is undergoing tremendous change. Yes, we all love to see good craftsmanship, but even in Japan it didn't happen as part of the natural evolutionary process. From a marketing, business course site:

In the 1980's and early 1990's, when many large Japanese companies set up manufacturing operations in North America, they suffered from a competitive environment that caused people to think that North American goods were better in quality than Japanese goods. To address this public perception, Japanese companies sought manufacturing methods to produce goods with a very high level of quality so they could penetrate the market. Total Quality Management (TQM) was not invented in Japan, it was invented in the U.S., but it was used by the Japanese very effectively in the 1980's and the term has subsequently become associated with Japanese management principles.

Without similar intervention in China, no one can say for sure which path they'll end up taking. Currently, all the premium quality knives manufactured in China are carefully managed by people trained to oversee all aspects of production, from heat treating to making sure they're all stuffed correctly into their little boxes. What I'm saying is that you can't really remove this oversight and expect the Chinse, on their own, to produce superb products. The Chinese, who even have variations in their language that keeps members of one group from talking to members of another, have even more approaches to work ethics. If TQM, or something like it, doesn't take hold, then it will be a long time before we can expect quality products.

I won't eat anything from China, knowingly. And if I had a choice, I wouldn't buy anything from China. But since the latter can't be avoided, we obviously have to be wary. In short, an American product made in China will usually always be better than a Chinese product made in China.

O please have you even been outside of the US? You sound like you are reading a script from the KKK text or CNN news broadcast report.

 

[Projek]

See the problem is this: it is not because Chinese factories can not make quality products, its because the US compaines only buy cheap products from Chinese factories. Just look at HanWei products they are not cheap but they are very high quality edged weapons/tools. The US compaines wont buy Chinese made knives with S30V steel and G10 handles(Micarta) instead they tell the factories to produce cheap products with cheap materials.

For example I have a Benchmade 710D2 and love it very much. But the knife have a lot of blade play(I tried tighten up the screw everything). If BM paid Chinese factory the same or just a little less money, Chinese factory can make the same exact quality if not better. Chinese products are often seen as cheap because they were not paid with enough money to make better products.

 

[Confederate]

Say, I am still on bladeforums, am I not? I haven't left the site somehow, have I? I didn't think I would ever read something like that in the Reviews section of bladeforums, certainly not from someone who has been around for about two years.......words fail me.

Apparently, you're at no loss of words, especially when you run on with your ad hominem attacks.

If you believe that premium steels can withstand the same rigors as more standard steels, please show me where I'm wrong. I've seen AUS8 and VG1 steels used in rugged testing, but not so much the higher grade knives.

 

[hardheart]

you still haven't clarified what a premium or standard steel is. I would hazard to say that something like INFI is premium, since the knives are expensive and it's available only from one manufacturer. Maybe S30V is premium, check out the Strider test on knifetests.com. AUS8 and VG1 are stainless steels, something entirely pedestrian like 5160 would kick their asses in toughness tests, purely steel properties. Try to separate the steels from the knife designs they're used in. 5/16" thick anything makes a tough knife.

 

[1kimo4u]

senority rules! that is a trip when brought up some times. i am pretty new to this media, however i learn fast. is a ex-force recon marine (mos:8654) with only 4 months on bladeforums, be less experieced with knives or what not, than a person with nada hardcore experience, but 8 years blade forums, be so much more knowledgable? maybe we all need to be more open. that being said, i will always try to buy "MADE IN THE USA"!

 

[HoB]

Apparently, you're at no loss of words, especially when you run on with your ad hominem attacks.

If you believe that premium steels can withstand the same rigors as more standard steels, please show me where I'm wrong. I've seen AUS8 and VG1 steels used in rugged testing, but not so much the higher grade knives.

"Ad hominem" attack means one that is directed a the person rather than at a line of argument. It is against the rules of bladeforums and I would have been already banned if I was responsible for such. My comment was clearly directed against a line of argument of yours. I have never spoken in any way or form against your person.

I will elaborate, even though others have said already what I would have: Apparently a $600 Busse is not a premium knife, or a $600 Strider (well, we might actually agree here) or the competition chopper from Ed Schempp for Spyderco that is currently in planning that is likely going to be individually bainited 52100. Apparently the custom knives by Phil Wilson don't make the cut as premium knives/steels either. The Hossum customs either nor the Hossum knives for Spyderco (ever heard of Hossum's nail test?). What about differentially tempered steels like 1095 by Birchtree knives? Apparently sandwiched VG-10 by Fjallkniven is not a premium steel/blade either (take a look at Noss's tests). So are we comparing now just materials (steels) or knives? I would think that pretty much any custom is a premium knife and tons of them are amazingly tough.

In your statement you show in my opinion that you have never really though about what the term "premium steels" and "standart steels" or "premium knives" is supposed to refer to. Are you refering only to stainless steels vs. carbon steels, do special heattreats count, are only heavily ledeburitic steels make the cut as "premium" or does it require a certain micro-structure? Personally, I would think that in general I would expect a premium blade at least (since you are simultaneously compare models and materials) to be in a knife that is priced at a premium, if not because of the material used, then by they way HOW the material was used.

But even with varying opinions on this which are undoubtedly present here your statement is nonsensical in the context you wrote it in. The steels that are predominantly used by Benchmade are 154CM, D2, and S30V. The first two are by no measure any more "premium" than those used by companies like Spyderco or Kershaw just as an example, one might even argue the opposite (more exotic examples you find among the custom makers) and the last one is used in at least as many models of other companies as they are used by BM.

That said, I don't give much about seniority, but while I would be a lot more patient with someone making such a statement who has recently joined, I would expect someone to pick up some basics in two years, just one would expect in any other context.

 

[knarfeng]

If you believe that premium steels can withstand the same rigors as more standard steels, please show me where I'm wrong. I've seen AUS8 and VG1 steels used in rugged testing, but not so much the higher grade knives.

"Premium steels" are usually considered "premium" because they hold an edge better than other steels. Knives that are designed to take advantage of the cutting ability of these steels are typically given a thinner profile, being designed for extended slicing rather than el destructo usage.

There are several exceptions to this general rule of thumb. Strider knives uses S30V. So does Chris Reeve in his Green Beret knife. They are designed to be tough and are as tough as anything anywhere, despite their usage of "premium steel".

IIRC Noss 4 did one of his el destructo tests with a Falkniven F1 using laminated VG10 steel. The knife performed well and I would consider their laminated steel to be premium. This knife also is designed for rugged usage, yet uses premium steel.

As I mentioned in my note to you in the Buck 110 thread, there is more than the steel and the heat treat in a knife. Blade design is a major factor in the performance of a knfe blade.

As ThomBrogan likes to quote Landes: "geometry cuts".

 

[Confederate]

"Premium steels" are usually considered "premium" because they hold an edge better than other steels. Knives that are designed to take advantage of the cutting ability of these steels are typically given a thinner profile, being designed for extended slicing rather than el destructo usage.

Exactly. I'm speaking in generalities. I can't possibly take into account all the variations of of heat treats, blade thickness, etc.

Why are sanmai steels produced? Simply because lower grade steels can be made more rugged than the premium core which it protects. Now in the case of Cold Steel's San Mai, which is a gimmick, the core is a tough mid-grade stainless which really needs no protection. But the idea behind sanmai is that "premium" steel (too often defined as a stellar edge retention steel) is not generally as tough as lower carbon steels that are more malleable.

 

[Confederate]

1) Oh Please. The reason Deming taught his TQM principles to the Japanese was that only the Japanese accepted the teachings. American companies told him to go pound sand. America did not "intervene" in Japan. The Japanese listened to an American teacher. Just because it is on a website does not make it true.

Yes, I know all this. I also know that MacArthur was a tremendous influence on the Japanese. The Americans didn't listen to Deming, so Deming brought his concepts to Japan. My point was, it didn't just happen in Japan. It took an outside influence. Even when American corporation managers paid lip service to TQM, they were far too entrenched, most of them, in their petty fiefdoms, to ever sharing the power.

2) What data do you have to support this sweeping generalization about the industry of an entire country?

No data other than what I read, and which is available in some detail on the Internet and in the Wall Street Journal. What sweeping generalization are you referring to?

"Ad hominem" attack means one that is directed a the person rather than at a line of argument. It is against the rules of bladeforums and I would have been already banned if I was responsible for such. My comment was clearly directed against a line of argument of yours. I have never spoken in any way or form against your person.

Yes, I know what ad hominem means. Your implication was clearly that anyone who knew what they were talking about would not make such statements. That was directed against me. Still, I take no offense. Many people tend to communicate their disapproval of things without specifying what, exactly, it is they disapprove of.

As far as premium steels go, they're generally regarded as being more expensive, harder, with greater edge retention. Many hard steels aren't as malleable as softer steels. Anciently, Damascus steels forged in the East were sold in Syria and other places and the swords and other weapons produced showed both strength and flexibility. Softer steels tend to be less subject to breakage or fractures, while harder steels tend to be more inclined. Softer steels can be made harder and premium (more expensive harder) steels can be made softer; however, I am speaking generally.

China is capable of producing very good knives and tools, but they also produce tons of unmitigated crap. And when I spoke about the need for oversight, I did not necessarily mean American oversight, although I trust American oversight much more. Oversight/management is crucial for any decent product.

 

[knarfeng]

Premium steels, for example, are not generally as strong and as pliant as tougher steels.......
-----------------------
If you believe that premium steels can withstand the same rigors as more standard steels, please show me where I'm wrong. I've seen AUS8 and VG1 steels used in rugged testing, but not so much the higher grade knives.

------------------------
Exactly. I'm speaking in generalities. I can't possibly take into account all the variations of of heat treats, blade thickness, etc.

Why are sanmai steels produced? Simply because lower grade steels can be made more rugged than the premium core which it protects. Now in the case of Cold Steel's San Mai, which is a gimmick, the core is a tough mid-grade stainless which really needs no protection. But the idea behind sanmai is that "premium" steel (too often defined as a stellar edge retention steel) is not generally as tough as lower carbon steels that are more malleable.

You say you cannot take into account all the heat treats and thicknesses. But that is exactly my point. A successful knife designer must do exactly that. The performance of a knife is based on the steel, the heat treat, and the blade design. You must look at all three factors. Chris Reeve, Mick Stider, and Falkniven are good knife designers. They looked at all three factors and came up with tough knives using premium steels.

I don't agree with your original comment, which I quoted above.
Lower carbon steels are generally tougher than higher carbon steels. Not "stronger". Lower carbon steels are also typically less expensive to buy and process than the "premium" steels.

That works for AUS8. It is a lower carbon steel. It might indeed be tougher than ATS34. What about VG1, though. That is not a lower carbon steel. It has about 1% carbon in it, which puts it in the realm of VG10 for basic properties. VG1 has fewer expensive components in the alloy than does VG10, so I dare say it is less expensive. So how does CS make these "tough" knives out of it? The same way Chris Reeve, Mick Strider, and Falkniven made tough knives out of their premium steels. They adjusted the blade design.

 

[hardheart]

Many hard steels aren't as malleable as softer steels.

what is a hard steel

Softer steels tend to be less subject to breakage or fractures, while harder steels tend to be more inclined. Softer steels can be made harder and premium (more expensive harder) steels can be made softer; however, I am speaking generally.

what is a soft steel

 

[goldie]

i wouldnt worry too much,if nostradamus & the mayan calendar is correct,it will all be over in 5 years

 

[Confederate]

Yes, this is getting so far off track that I don't know how we got here. Suffice it to say that China is as capable as any other nation in producing anything. My point, if ever I had one, is primarily the element of trust, or the lack thereof. Unfortunately, one can't tell by looking at a blade how good that blade is.

If everyone on this board had some way of measuring Rockwell hardness, the entire structure of the topics here would be changed, I think. CRKT has a tolerance of 56-58 for its AUS8. The thing is, I'd feel ripped off if my AUS8 blade had a RC of 56.

Part of my disdain for China is caused by some stomach herbal medicine I bought a few years ago. Came from a reputable company in the US. Turns out it was loaded with heavy metals, and the Chinese producers knew it.

So it's a trust issue.

 

[goldie]

also, all these gripes with overseas manufacturing is our own doing,looking for cheaper ways to make things,avoiding unions & medical benefits.even hershey is setting up a factory in mexico,& on a recent bag of potato chips i saw it was made in mexico,too.this country cant even make candy & chips anymore. its such a shame.........

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

For what it is worth I just recieved some knives from a very reputable "Made in USA" company that I was completely unhappy with the fit and finish- the worst that I have ever seen in a sample of a companies work. Just my experience.

 

[goldie]

check out a lone wolf harsey folder; the liners have all kinds of tool marks,& the early micarta handled ones always have vertical blade play; & this was a $150+ knife.the small crkt s2 model was as perfect as a microtech,as i compared the two.these factories that crkt & others are using do make some nice stuff for the money.since smith & wesson moved their assembly to maine,some of their guns are suffering,too.i saw one of their 22 autos in a store,it had a gouge running right through the feed ramp.it was terrible......