Are you frustrated by the amount information provided by knife producers to consumers?

[Karl H]

Preface
Let me preface this by saying that I am relatively new to buying and critically evaluating knives. For most of my life, I simply grabbed the most conveniently located knife that seemed like it might do the job that I wanted it to do. Recently, I have taken an interest in spending money to buy "high performance" knives, rather than just getting by with whatever is on hand.

I should also disclose the fact that I am an engineer. I am trained to think in terms of limit state design and I crave quantitative design and test information on all engineered products, when making a purchasing decision. I realize that most people don't think the same way that I do.

Intro
While shopping around for knives, I have found it interesting how little detailed information knife companies make readily available to consumers regarding "acceptable use" and "abuse" specific to each knife. This seems to have spurred a cottage industry of internet knife testers and reviewers, that do their best to try and help people understand the limitations of different knives, but I think it would be better for the designers and manufacturers to provide this type of information.

To the credit of the knife production companies, the primary or optimal use of the knife is usually (but not always) readily apparent to the consumer. However, more often than not, the only readily information about the knife is often ridiculous marketing spiel and a list of knife material and dimensions.

It's rare to get any much detailed explicit info on the eningeering design or testing of a knife, unless the knife is being marketed for a very niche market.

Ultimately, I think this is bad for both consumers and producers. When consumers have more information readily available, they are less likely to damage their knives and be more satisfied with their purchase. They are less likely to make warrantee claims and are more likely to write positive reviews of the product, encouraging other people to buy the same product.

Below, I have provided three examples of knives from three prominent American knife producers.

Benchmade
Since I own a Mini Crooked River, I will use that knife as an example. The product website includes that following relevant information:

A traditional shape combined with modern technology that pushes the preconceived notions of what a hunting knife should be.

Use Every Day, Hunting, Outdoor

Then, if you dig a little bit further, you can find some guidelines on what is meant by "Every Day", "Hunting", and "Outdoor" use. Here is an example:

From water to woods, backpacking trips to car camping, kayaking to fly fishing, Benchmade outdoor knives are versatile cutting tools.

While this does provide some more information on design intent and optimal use, there is still no information the limitations on the knife that I can find on the Benchmade website. Fortunately, the knife comes with a printed "Benchmade Use and Care Manual", which does mention some very generic limitations. An excerpt is provided below:

Your new benchmade is designed to function as a cutting tool. Never attempt to to use your Benchmade knife as a screwdriver, pry-bar, chisel, or punch. Never throw your bench-made knife. Use for any purpose other than normal cutting activities is considered abuse and is not covered under warranty.

Prying is an acceptable use on knives with a blunt tip blade and is covered under Benchmade's Limited Lifetime Warranty. This is limited to the following knife models - 112, 591, 916, 365, 9160.

I think it is great that Benchmade provides these more detailed and explicit guidelines in the Use and Care Manual, but it still doesn't cover activities like wood carving, battoning, and chopping.

Cold Steel
I will use the American Lawman as an example for Cold Steel. However, please do note that Cold Steel seems to provide more detailed info on the Lawman than most of their other knives. Here is the description from their website:

Cold Steel is proud to introduce the American Lawman - ... expressly designed to serve, our brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement. ... these rugged knives are designed to perform in the most extreme environments while still remaining comfortable to use and easy to carry. Their drop point blades are big and sharp enough for almost any task while remaining "Civilian Friendly" in appearance. Made from high performance American S35VN steel and hollow ground to a thin, hand-polished edge, each blade is also DLC (Diamond Like) coated for added endurance and corrosion resistance. The Lawman’s handles are also designed to be as versatile and user friendly as possible. Made from G-10, they are contoured for grip security in even the worst conditions. A lock failure on your folder is incredibly dangerous - but if the lock fails on a police officer's knife in the line of duty, it could be disastrous! That's why we have equipped each American Lawman with our Tri-Ad locking mechanism. Designed to withstand terrific impact forces and shock, it has passed some of the most gruesome torture testing in the industry.

Below the description, there is a short video showing some of the testing that was done on the knife along with some commentary by this video:

While I don't have a Cold Steel knife, so I don't know what additional information might be included in the box, this is probably the best example of providing explicit detailed use guidelines on a website. The tests shown on the video may not particularly representative of what most people would might actually use these knives for, it at least allows for some degree of consumer extrapolation.

Spyderco
I will use the Shaman, since it is comparable to the Cold Steel American Lawman. The description from the website includes:

Drawing inspiration from our iconic Native® folding knife, the Shaman offers the same advanced ergonomics and proven design dynamics in a larger, even more capable format. The soul of this impressive design is its CPM® S30V® stainless steel blade, which features a full-flat grind for outstanding edge geometry and an acute, utilitarian point. A fully accessible Trademark Round Hole™ proudly announces its Spyderco lineage and ensures swift, reliable, one-handed opening with either hand.

The stonewash-finished blade is housed in an exceptionally refined, ergonomic handle built with nested skeletonized stainless steel liners and contoured matte-finished G-10 scales. This robust construction forms the foundation of the knife’s high-strength Compression Lock® mechanism, which locks the blade securely open and allows safe, easy one-handed closing.

To ensure convenient carry and immediate access, a stonewashed four-position pocket clip offers left or right-side, tip-up or tip-down carry. Available with either a PlainEdge™ or fully serrated SpyderEdge™ blade, the Shaman offers powerful cutting magic in a stylish, user-friendly format.

I don't own a Spyderco, so I don't know what additional information might come with the knife, but I do find it interesting that Spyderco seems to go to great lengths to be as vague as possible in the website description in the optimal or acceptable use for the knife.

Conclusion
I think it would be better for producers and consumers, if manufacturers made more detailed design and testing information about their knives readily available to consumers.

I would suggest the following types of information:

Listing "recommended" and "not recommended" types of cuts on different types of materials. For example:

Recommended Use: Slicing Cardboard, cutting soft fabrics, slicing vegetables and boneless meat.
Not Recommended: Carving Wood, Batoning Wood, Stabbing Sheet Metal, Chopping Bones, etc.

It also seems like it would be relatively easy to provide more quantitative information, such as a lock strength rating (for folders) and a charpy v-notch impact toughness (in addition to hardness).

What information do you wish knife producers would make readily available to consumers?

 

[Hackenslash]

I think we're better off working with common sense.

For starters, you need to separate marketing lingo from utility recommendations. Particularly when it comes to Cold Steel.

If knife makers were required to quantify acceptable tasks for each tool they make, there would need to be a unified set of standards so that "hard use" (for example) was the same to all makers.
If we have a unified set of standards, there would need to be a administrative body to define, quantify and apply these standards.
Such a body would need to be mandated in order to give it enforcement capability. A new bureaucracy would be created. The International Bureau of Appropriate Tasks. TIBAT for short.
I don't need more things in my life telling me what to do. I have an ex-wife.

I do admire the thought you put into this. You really presented a well written concept. Please don't think i'm pooping all over it.

As with most things, common sense is the most important guideline for using any tool. Ceding self-responsibility to a set of standards would be counter-productive, in my opinion.

Of course, common sense has gotten so rare, it's officially become a Super Power. Thanks for an interesting topic.

 

[Hackenslash]

But, that being said, I would like more uniformity in knife measurements and dimensions. Blade stock thickness and handle thickness at the widest point aren't always available. Also, I'd like to see a measurement showing the balance center point of a knife. Nobody ever thinks to do that.

 

[afishhunter]

I find it at a minimum ... "frustrating" ... when the dealer or manufacturer only gives the over-all open length ... if they mention length at all, rather than the closed length.
The open length of a folding knife is meaningless and irrelevant to me. I don't carry the knife opened in my pocket, after all.

 

[ferider]

Interesting post, Karl, thank you. Engineer here too. And German (like you ?).

Two points:

1) while I love data, I buy knives differently: I imagine how they feel when doing certain tasks. I've EDC'ed pocket knives my entire life, starting as a little boy, so I expect this aspect to be very subjective, and hard to quantify in numbers.

2) Most knives >= $100 these days are sold and (used?) as fashion objects, at least partially - and I'm not judging, and not excluding myself. It's actually interesting to analyze knife maker marketing and sales strategies, not too different from - say - designer purses. Now who would need an engineering spec of a Versace purse ?

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[Quiet]

Benchmade's statement: "Your new benchmade is designed to function as a cutting tool. Never attempt to to use your Benchmade knife as a screwdriver, pry-bar, chisel, or punch. Never throw your bench-made knife. Use for any purpose other than normal cutting activities is considered abuse and is not covered under warranty."

Should really be all ANYone needs for any knife from any company. Just the first sentence alone: "Your new benchmade is designed to function as a cutting tool." should be all you need. Pocket knives were not designed to be used to chop or baton, and wood-carving, well, they should be able to perform that just fine. Knives were made to cut things, not beat on them, or be used as a pry bar.

This should be a common sense understanding that fuels all knife purchase choices. If you want to be able to use a knife for something it wasn't designed for, then go watch one of the Youtubers where they try to pretend that abuse is somehow actually "hard use". It isn't, it's just abuse. At some point, people fell in love with the idea that every knife should be impervious to any damage or breakage and should stand up to any and all things they might do with it. Knives, especially folding knives are actually fairly delicate tools. A lot of tight tolerances have to be just right in order for things like pivots and locks to work correctly. Abuse tends to start knocking those things out of wack.

Again, this is all information that's understood by folks who don't abuse their tools. I don't need the manufacturer telling me these things explicitly, however I understand that there are a lot of people out there who just aren't that bright and need things like bright orange warning labels on their purchases so they won't hurt themselves. (shrug).

Edited to add: To clarify, by the above, I mean, that's all anyone would need other than the standard listed physical specifications of the knife that most of the retailers and all of the manufacturers provide.

 

[Smiling]

I naturally want pics, short video test is good too, but I have youtube to see that.

Info that I want:
Steel used
HRC
Blade stock thickness
Blade lenght
Handle lenght
Overall lenght
Width
Grind
Weight
Sheath material

What I don't really care about:
Talk about knife maker/designer and his career. I'm here for the knife, not his biography. If I wanted to see it - I would look it up myself.

Things that are OK:
Primary purpose of the knife, like hunting/skinning, bushcraft, tactical, EDC and so on...

What is not OK:
"Tactical survival EDC hunting knife" or other such examples.

And what really gets on my nerves:
Descriptions about how that knife sees use in conflicts around the world and how it's used by millitary and/or special forces/marines...
I'm not a mall ninja to get off on stuff like that. If I wanted to play soldier games I'd join my country's army program and actually voluntarily be a soldier for few months and I'd also be paid for it.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Just give me the specs. There is absolutely no shortage of information for the consumer when it comes to all things knives.

Why do I need a manufacturer to tell me how to use a given knife? If you understand knives and geometry and what you're wanting to use it for, it isn't all that difficult to roughly match the design to the task. Now size, steel, ergonomics all of that can be factors but a lot of that is relative to each user.

I can only imagine the rant posts if manufacturers started trying to tell people the limits of their knives, the appropriate cutting tasks, etc.

"Spyderco's website says this knife cut 632 CATRA cards but mine dulled after only 14 cardboard boxes! This knife is a disgrace! I'm returning if they won't take it back because I used it, then I will never buy another one of their knives!"

"Buck says this knife was specifically designed to dress white tail deer but they are liars! This handle is way too small for my hand and I bet a lot of other people's too. They are going to get sued!"

 

[Therom]

I work in marketing for years, it has learned me to take my decisions based on my own ideas and not to confuse wants and needs.

Look at the present hypes/trends : steels names, HEC, cardboard cutting performance, etc.

if you are a causal user and plan to own only one knife, these are very valuable information.
If you are a collector of safe queen... well that is your money
if you are an amateur that own more than one knife and use them, you have to build your own experience and refine your system according to what you have tested

the more information we have, the better it is.
What information we want to use, shall depend on our carrying system and on our experience with different manufacturer and steels

at the moment I think the heat treating process is a key factor in which we actually have no information
Take s30v from Spyderco and Benchmade, they are different
S35vn from ZT and CRK, that is night and day
And even from the same company depending on the model or even on the serial number of the knife there are variations

be curious

 

[Karl H]

I think that "common sense" is something of a myth. You learn how to use a tool for any purpose by either getting guidance from someone else or trial and error. You can learn from from the designer, the manufacturer, other knife owners, or your own trial and error. Extrapolation is what I think people are referring to when they use the term "common sense". You can only extrapolate when you have experience / data to draw from.

I like to think that the main reason why people read forums like this is to learn from other people's trials and errors, so they can avoid making their own. If you have never broken or damaged a knife before, how can you what the limitations are? It would be way more effective and efficient to get this information from the knife producers.

The main benefits I would anticipate are:
1. There would be a lot less people upset with a broken or damaged knife
2. There would be a lot few overbuilt knives that are over designed to avoid warrantee claims.
3. Manufacturers and suppliers could keep costs lower, with fewer warrantee claims and returns from dissatisfied customers.

 

[Karl H]

I don't think it is necessary to know the exact heat treating process. However, any manufacturer that has optimized the heat treating process should be able to easily provide the expected hardness and toughness ranges for their knives, which is all consumers should really care about.

There are lots of reports of smart, knowledgeable people breaking or chipping knives with low toughness (e.g. Maxamet, S30V, VG10 without doing anything extreme that would clearly be considered abuse. Without knowing the toughness of the material, how do know what will break or chip your knife?

 

[Eli Chaps]

I think that "common sense" is something of a myth. You learn how to use a tool for any purpose by either getting guidance from someone else or trial and error. You can learn from from the designer, the manufacturer, other knife owners, or your own trial and error. Extrapolation is what I think people are referring to when they use the term "common sense". You can only extrapolate when you have experience / data to draw from.

I like to think that the main reason why people read forums like this is to learn from other people's trials and errors, so they can avoid making their own. If you have never broken or damaged a knife before, how can you what the limitations are? It would be way more effective and efficient to get this information from the knife producers.

The main benefits I would anticipate are:
1. There would be a lot less people upset with a broken or damaged knife
2. There would be a lot few overbuilt knives that are over designed to avoid warrantee claims.
3. Manufacturers and suppliers could keep costs lower, with fewer warrantee claims and returns from dissatisfied customers.

Karl, I'm not trying to argue with you but there really is a lot of common sense here. When you look at a Kia Soul, you don't need the manufacturer to tell you it isn't a high performance machine. But when you look at Mustang GT, you don't need the manufacturer to tell you it isn't intended to be a fuel sipping grocery getter.

If you break or damage a knife, the odds are you misused it. I don't think most folks need the manufacturer to tell them that you shouldn't baton wood with a Fontenille Pataud Lagiuole or that a Becker BK18 is a fine slicer or that a karambit is meant for self defense. These aren't pry bars so if you use them as such, you do so at your own risk.

If you want to geek out some stuff, I suggest:

1. zknives (theres a website and an app)
2. Knife Steel Nerds by forum member @Larrin
3. Science of Sharp by forum member @ToddS
4. Big Brown Bear on YouTube by forum member @DeadboxHero

Learn what makes up the knives. Understand the steels and how geometry affects them and best ways to use them for different applications and then learn how to make them sharp and what that means. There's a lifetime of exploration to be had there.

 

[Prester John]

I just need to know what kind of steel, size and shape of blade and handle, handle material, and where it is made.

Edit: I voted yes, but tried to change my vote to "none of the above". Yes, because I want some information, but I am not frustrated because the information is easy to find. So neither answer is quite right for me.

 

[KingMC]

I think that "common sense" is something of a myth. You learn how to use a tool for any purpose by either getting guidance from someone else or trial and error. You can learn from from the designer, the manufacturer, other knife owners, or your own trial and error. Extrapolation is what I think people are referring to when they use the term "common sense". You can only extrapolate when you have experience / data to draw from.

I don't think a knife is a confusing tool, it cuts thing; that's it. You need to pry? There are pry bars for that. You need to screw? There are screwdrivers for that. You need to hammer? There are hammers for that. You need to chisel? guess what...

People don't learn not to pry with a knife by being told not to do so by a manufacturer, they learn not to pry with a knife because they pried with a knife and it broke. You don't get instructions on how to hammer when you buy a hammer, you just get a list of some things that it's not designed to do and that's that.

I don't think it is necessary to know the exact heat treating process. However, any manufacturer that has optimized the heat treating process should be able to easily provide the expected hardness and toughness ranges for their knives, which is all consumers should really care about.

99% of knife users don't care about hardness, knife enthusiasts are not the majority and they're certainly not the people who buy the most knives. If enough consumers actually cared about something like steel hardness to the point that the knife manufacturers felt it was a profitable thing to advertise, they'd advertise it. I never knew hardness was something people cared about until I joined this forum, and I still also don't know the hardness of the steel in any of my knives; doesn't make me use them any less or affect my use of them in any way.

 

[jlauffer]

OP, one issue I see is that there's always going to be differences in interpretation if you try to get too specific, so it ends up coming back to common sense anyway. For example, you mention "Slicing Cardboard, cutting soft fabrics". How thick is the cardboard? Define "soft", etc. Everyone tries to be a lawyer these days to deny fault.

And for the knifemakers, the work necessary to generate those recommended/not recommended lists for each model would most likely cost more than would be saved in reduced warranty costs. Plus, Marketing 101 is to exaggerate the positives, not call attention to any negatives.

 

[MarkN86]

If you make things idiot proof, there will come along a better idiot. I don't need my hand held on how to use a knife or what knife needs to be used for what, and besides, there's way more to know than you can learn in a couple of paragraphs. Some of what you are asking for is something that some very knowledgeable people have been researching for a very long time, and it's not so easy to sum up exactly what a steel or blade is capable of without going into a lot of details and listing variables and graphs.

Every knife manufacturer's products are optimal for each job in their own eyes. You can call a quarter inch thick bladed knife the best hard use tactical fillet knife on the market, but that doesn't mean it's anywhere near good at the claimed task. Do you want to take their word for it or do you want the unbiased truth?

Creating an independent educational guide of what variables make a knife better for a certain task would be a better way to go about this, especially for people new to knives. That's exactly why these forums exist.

 

[SubMicron]

Knife steel is a world of neverending variables that make the quantification of knife steel performance very difficult.

This is especially true when you consider that any specific steel will have wild changes in performance characteristics based on the heat treat and thermo cycle done by the knife manufacturer.

How then can a steel manufacturer quantify what they're steel can do in the hands of a knife user? Dont forget all of the variables that can be introduced by the end user through sharpening and use.

Its easy to see how the burden of responsibility for the quantification of knife steel performance shifts from the steel industry to the knife industry. From here, consider that most knife manufacturers only work with a few steels, almost all of which do not stack well against the various sprint run steels used by Spyderco. It may not be in the best interest for any particular knife manufacturer to rank the performance of various steels. Such a thing could sour important business relationships.

Obviously the knife industry as a whole would benefit and expand with products that are easier to understand.

Who specifically benefits the most?

I would think that the knife retailers share some responsibility for quantifying how the products they sell, perform when stacked against one another.

You have to credit Blade HQ for taking the initiative to put something together, however its badly in need of an update.

What Larrin is doing at Knife Steel Nerds is amazing, and now he has his own CATRA machine.

All of the people on YouTube who do cut tests are also providing a tremendous service to everyone who wants to learn more. They cut things in those tests that people cut every day.

Channels like Cedric and Ada, Outpost 76, Tom Hosang Outdoors, Super Steel Steve, and now Alex Steingraber are providing data points that are very useful... just as useful as CATRA.

There's such a hunger for this information that the knowledge of which is becoming a fledgling cottage industry itself.

An opportunity exists for a knife retailer to expand their presence in social media by using their floor model samples to perform controlled cut tests in the same or similar ways to the above channels. Sharpen correctly. Test correctly. Retest to verify.

The use of a knife in an edge retention test reveals a lot about its ergonomic and geometry based performance. More insightful reviews could be produced.

An easier way for me to visualize edge retention for everything available on the market is to stack rank it against Maxamet, with Maxamet having a value of 100% or a value of 1000. This is convenient when watching rope cut tests because Maxamet stops at about 1000 cuts. Cardboard requires simple math.

So in my mind, K390 is approx 70-80% of Maxamet, REX-45 is appx 60-70%. Some steels have a wider range than others like M390 being at 20% to 40% realistically.

There's always outliers too.

 

[abcdef]

I realize that most people don't think the same way that I do.

Welcome Karl. This will make you a valued member of our community.

 

[Therom]

I don't think it is necessary to know the exact heat treating process. However, any manufacturer that has optimized the heat treating process should be able to easily provide the expected hardness and toughness ranges for their knives, which is all consumers should really care about.

There are lots of reports of smart, knowledgeable people breaking or chipping knives with low toughness (e.g. Maxamet, S30V, VG10 without doing anything extreme that would clearly be considered abuse. Without knowing the toughness of the material, how do know what will break or chip your knife?

I agree but as much as I am interested into learning from experience of some YouTube videos, I have , on many occasions, had different experiences

MMA’s I respect the work of these people, I came to the conclusion that there should some deviation depending of each particular production batch

my feeling is that there are trends, it that you have to put your particular knife to the test

as an exemple, I have a s110v PM2
The consensus is that the s110v from Spyderco is not spectacular.
I have to agree
I had 2 PM2 ins110v, one was “meh”, the second was great
Neither of them of been too brittle even when tested in more hard use work (rebuilding y house)

same with s30v, m390, s35vn, Elmax, Maxamet,etc.

we have some good knowledge basis available
But my feeling is that a very important step of the process is not quantified and not made available to our knowledge

that being said, at the moment I have more trust in the information from some tojtivers than in the information of most manufacturers
Nevertheless, the manifacturers make a great job to educate us and to share some marketing knowledge and that is still interesting to have that at hand

 

[allenC]

A lot of the info provided by the maker is just to avoid lawsuits.
You think like an engineer, but Benchmade, Spyderco, etc...all want the person providing the info about the knife to think like a lawyer.

Maybe I've just been using knives for so long that I don't need the maker to tell me what the knife's intended usage is or isn't.

As for strength: Most other tools don't come with such data...my screwdrivers and wrenches don't provide data to how much forced I can apply before they break.
My rake doesn't tell me how much stuff it can rake up before becoming ineffective, or the tensile strength of each tine, or how much force the handle can withstand.

Asking for such info is just unreasonable in my opinion.