Are you frustrated by the amount information provided by knife producers to consumers?

[allenC]

I just need to know what kind of steel, size and shape of blade and handle, handle material, and where it is made.

Edit: I voted yes, but tried to change my vote to "none of the above". Yes, because I want some information, but I am not frustrated because the information is easy to find. So neither answer is quite right for me.

I feel the same, but I chose to not vote.

 

[danbot]

I remember a thread similar to this before. My suggestion was that with enough demand, the knife manufacturers could fairly easily ad a link on their websites to more detailed specs on their knives for those who are interested.
I win shortest post!
EDIT: besides the one above...

 

[madcap_magician]

One thing that I do wish was more available is blade hardness. Lots of companies do provide this information, but of all the basic information you might want to know about a knife - blade steel, handle material, overall length, length open/closed, length of blade, etc., that's the one that is missing the most.

The other thing I would like to know more frequently is what the inclusive sharpening angle was on the secondary bevel.

 

[Bastler]

If you have never broken or damaged a knife before, how can you what the limitations are?

So if you want to know what constitutes abuse, just loan your knife to the guy who says, "Lemme see your knife." When he hands it back to you AFU, ask him, "What the hell did you do?"

 

[MolokaiRider]

Welcome to BladeForums; very nice write up and interesting topic.

More information is better in my opinion, but not always necessary.

Manufacturers and custom makers have the freedom to offer whatever information they deem helpful to sell their product. If they choose to list specs, uses, disclaimers, etc., that’s up to them.

That said, I personally enjoy having lots of data and opinions to sift through (most found here on an enthusiast forum) before making a purchase.

To answer your original question, I’ve been good with what manufacturers presently offer combined with the opinions and experiences of fellow Forumites.

 

[Karl H]

Thanks for the input folks. I cannot respond to everyone, all in one post. Here's my take on a few topics that have been brought up.

RE: Liability Issues
I honestly don't see any real liability issues with disclosing more information, since there are no regulations that they are subject to. If a knife breaks in use and maims or kills the user, then they will be open to lawsuits, no matter what their specs say.

Benchmade is making the hardness specification for their knives public. To my knowledge, they have not had any lawsuit issues. However, they did have a public relations issue when knife owners found out how soft the initial heat treatments were.

They are offering free replacement of 3V knives that don't meet the current hardness specification, even for knives that were heat treated to a lower hardness specification.

RE: Unreasonable Burden
Producers already list the materials and dimensions on their websites. Benchmade has started listed hardness. Adding a few more lines to the existing specifications list, doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Any reputable manufacturer should be able to control hardness and toughness of forged or HIP powder steels to within a relatively narrow range. IMO, this is the type of info that can help differentiate a manufacturer that charges more for the same materials.

I do find it incredible that a some manufacturers don't list blade length and functional handle length on their spec sheet.

RE: Blade HQ and Other Retailers
I am glad that retailers, such as Blade HQ, sometimes provide information that that manufacturer's do not provide. Everything else being equal, I am more like to buy from Blade HQ for this reason. However, you cannot expect them to provide information like toughness or CATRA test results.

RE: What Larrin is doing at Knife Steel Nerds

I agree that Larrin's work is great... and probably the best thing going at the moment... but it is still limited. From what I can tell, most if not all of Larrin's samples are not heat treated according to any manufacturer's specs. So, his test results aren't necessarily representative of any particular production knife. Manufacturers probably aren't going to share their proprietary heat treatments with Larrin.

Manufacturers should have their own data on actual production samples that they could make public. The way I see it, Larrin's work should help you develop a short list of materials to look for for a given application. The manufacturers should provide information on their products.

RE: Channels like Cedric and Ada, Outpost 76, Tom Hosang Outdoors, Super Steel Steve, and now Alex Steingraber

I agree that these channels provide some useful information, especially if your primary concern matches testing (slicing cardboard, cutting rope, etc). Less useful for other applications. OUTDOORS55 has a good "rant" on this subject, which I recommend for anyone that views testing from the channels listed above. See:

RE: Up-selling Expensive Steels

I am astounded that manufacturers seems to be able to up-sell people on more exotic steels without providing any actual quantitative performance information. You think that they would be able to sell more, if they could actually quantify a performance benefit for the higher priced versions. Meaningless terms, such as "NASA", "high", "great", and "extreme" are not going to persuade me to open my pocket book.

 

[danbot]

Thanks for the input folks. I cannot respond to everyone, all in one post. Here's my take on a few topics that have been brought up.

RE: Liability Issues
I honestly don't see any real liability issues with disclosing more information, since there are no regulations that they are subject to. If a knife breaks in use and maims or kills the user, then they will be open to lawsuits, no matter what their specs say.

Benchmade is making the hardness specification for their knives public. To my knowledge, they have not had any lawsuit issues. However, they did have a public relations issue when knife owners found out how soft the initial heat treatments were.

They are offering free replacement of 3V knives that don't meet the current hardness specification, even for knives that were heat treated to a lower hardness specification.

RE: Unreasonable Burden
Producers already list the materials and dimensions on their websites. Benchmade has started listed hardness. Adding a few more lines to the existing specifications list, doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Any reputable manufacturer should be able to control hardness and toughness of forged or HIP powder steels to within a relatively narrow range. IMO, this is the type of info that can help differentiate a manufacturer that charges more for the same materials.

I do find it incredible that a some manufacturers don't list blade length and functional handle length on their spec sheet.

RE: Blade HQ and Other Retailers
I am glad that retailers, such as Blade HQ, sometimes provide information that that manufacturer's do not provide. Everything else being equal, I am more like to buy from Blade HQ for this reason. However, you cannot expect them to provide information like toughness or CATRA test results.

RE: What Larrin is doing at Knife Steel Nerds

I agree that Larrin's work is great... and probably the best thing going at the moment... but it is still limited. From what I can tell, most if not all of Larrin's samples are not heat treated according to any manufacturer's specs. So, his test results aren't necessarily representative of any particular production knife. Manufacturers probably aren't going to share their proprietary heat treatments with Larrin.

Manufacturers should have their own data on actual production samples that they could make public. The way I see it, Larrin's work should help you develop a short list of materials to look for for a given application. The manufacturers should provide information on their products.

RE: Channels like Cedric and Ada, Outpost 76, Tom Hosang Outdoors, Super Steel Steve, and now Alex Steingraber

I agree that these channels provide some useful information, especially if your primary concern matches testing (slicing cardboard, cutting rope, etc). Less useful for other applications. OUTDOORS55 has a good "rant" on this subject, which I recommend for anyone that views testing from the channels listed above. See:

RE: Up-selling Expensive Steels

I am astounded that manufacturers seems to be able to up-sell people on more exotic steels without providing any actual quantitative performance information. You think that they would be able to sell more, if they could actually quantify a performance benefit for the higher priced versions. Meaningless terms, such as "NASA", "high", "great", and "extreme" are not going to persuade me to open my pocket book.

So, to open your pocketbook, they need to share all of their quality control reports and maybe the material certifications...? Reveal their processes for us?

If you are not satisfied with your purchase, return it with a note that tells them why.

They do care about returns from dissatisfied customers and have good warranties.

 

[Hackenslash]

I’ve got no problem with providing as many empirical facts about a knife as possible. Those are not debatable. Those are valuable data points.

A problem arises when you try to assign appropriate tasks for a knife for one reason: user variability. A knife that works fine for bushcrafting for one person may be a failure for another due to human variables, as one example.

Hand size, arm strength, technique and environmental conditions are just a few of the uncontrollable conditions that will ultimately determine the suitability of a tool. It would be folly to shift the burden to the manufacturer.

These variable conditions are addressed by experience, knowledge, capability and a bunch of common sense. All the “approved” tasks in the world don’t amount to anything in this case.

This is seeking a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Any “approved task” list is destined to fail because it can’t possibly cover the wide range of variables in the live world.

 

[JamesofArc]

Its not the knife makers job or responsibility to tell us how the knife is to be used. Its a free country and we have the right to use the knife anyway we see fit to use that knife. Knife companies tell us the material and warranty, it is our decision if we can keep it in the tolerance of that material.

If the person needs technical instruction as to which side the blade is on and which end is the handle then maybe experiance will teach them. Can you imagine Robert Loveless or Bob Dozer standing there in front of the grinder wondering where they can get technical instructions on how to build a knife.

 

[MarkN86]

You are very much overthinking this. If you are using a knife and you hurt yourself with it and try to file a lawsuit you're going to fight an uphill legal battle. These companies state that anything other than cutting is misuse, breakage and injury is your fault if you are doing something outside of just cutting, and that covers their tail legally. On top of that, the common sense that you say doesn't exist tells us that there are inherent risks to using a knife.

My advice is to carry a knife and a multitool. No need to pry, cut wire, or turn screws with the knife.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Karl,

Let's say I'm mildly familiar with the engineer mind.

You are new to this. Many of us are not. By definition you have a lot to learn and absorb and understand. I'd suggest you do those things.

 

[Danke42]

I just wish they'd do this with Phillips screwdrivers.

PH 000? PH 002, PH001, really?

 

[FrannaM]

The specs I would like to see missing on most manufacturers/sellers sites are the type of steel used for liners (especially liner locks) and hardened steel inserts on frame locks. Also the steel used for the pivot screw assembly.

 

[patrickguignot]

The most important info would be the hardness of the blade after the heat treat. That's crucial if you want to know if your steel will perform to its full potential.
And I would like to have precise info and not meaningless and absurd range like "58RC to 61RC".
If you're producing blades with a range like this, it means your heat treat is a joke. What would you say of a car maker trying to sell you a car with an engine developing a power between "75hp to 200hp"?

 

[lieferung]

This is just silly. If I buy a production knife I am not going to try to push it to its physical limits. I'm going to use it to open boxes and cut rope and maybe slice food. The hardest thing my work knives encounter is the occasional copper wire but mostly scraping gypsum board. For that purpose I buy high carbon steels and solid locks. I don't need the manufacturer to guarantee me that it will function in this regard, I can reasonably assume that for the price I pay it will serve its purpose.

 

[craytab]

"Are you frustrated by the amount information provided by knife producers to consumers?

1. Yes. The amount/type of information provided by a knife producer affects my purchasing decisions.
2. No. The information provided by the producer has little or no effect on my purchasing decisions."

I'm more frustrated with questions that don't have appropriately related responses. I don't think the question and answers convey what you are really trying to get at.

 

[benchwarmer380]

"Are you frustrated by the amount information provided by knife producers to consumers?

1. Yes. The amount/type of information provided by a knife producer affects my purchasing decisions.
2. No. The information provided by the producer has little or no effect on my purchasing decisions."

I'm more frustrated with questions that don't have appropriately related responses. I don't think the question and answers convey what you are really trying to get at.

I thought so at first and by the common usage of "frustrated", you are correct.

It makes sense with the tertiary definition from Oxford:
1.2attributive Prevented from progressing, succeeding, or being fulfilled.

For me, the the makers and manufacturers i would buy give me more than ample info to make a decision.

 

[Quiet]

I'm proud to be a tiebreaker vote, turning it to 19 for no, more information isn't going to sway my decision in any meaningful way.

 

[craytab]

I thought so at first and by the common usage of "frustrated", you are correct.

It makes sense with the tertiary definition from Oxford:
1.2attributive Prevented from progressing, succeeding, or being fulfilled.

For me, the the makers and manufacturers i would buy give me more than ample info to make a decision.

Okay, but now look at the response choices. They just don't make sense. They are responding to to different questions. Seems to me, far more thought was put into walls of text than just getting to the point with a simple question and answer choices. How about, "Would you like more information than is typically provided by manufacturers, such as: blah blah blah. Yes or No." As it is now, trying to figure out how to respond is an exercise in frustration.

Your last statement summarizes how I feel. I don't need more or less information than is typically given by quality manufacturers. In general, reading and watching reviews is about information that goes above and beyond what I expect from a manufacturer. I don't consider the silly meaningless marketing done by companies (I don't generally cut meat filled boots). Also, when looking at reviews, I in fact do not want the manufacturer doing them.

 

[craytab]

I'm proud to be a tiebreaker vote, turning it to 19 for no, more information isn't going to sway my decision in any meaningful way.

But that is not what you answered. Here is what you chose: "The information provided by the producer has little or no effect on my purchasing decisions". You basically looked at picture and the spec sheet said "knife".