Are you frustrated by the amount information provided by knife producers to consumers?

[Hackenslash]

Okay, but now look at the response choices. They just don't make sense. They are responding to to different questions. Seems to me, far more thought was put into walls of text than just getting to the point with a simple question and answer choices. How about, "Would you like more information than is typically provided by manufacturers, such as: blah blah blah. Yes or No." As it is now, trying to figure out how to respond is an exercise in frustration.

Your last statement summarizes how I feel. I don't need more or less information than is typically given by quality manufacturers. In general, reading and watching reviews is about information that goes above and beyond what I expect from a manufacturer. I don't consider the silly meaningless marketing done by companies (I don't generally cut meat filled boots). Also, when looking at reviews, I in fact do not want the manufacturer doing them.

I had the same problem with the poll. What the OP is specifically asking for are "approved uses" from manufacturers for the knives they make. It made it hard to pick an answer when the choices didn't relate at all to the proposal in post #1. Oh well, I voted "No" because it was closest to what I wanted to say. I guess I was more frustrated by the poll question than the lack of info from knife manufacturers .

 

[Quiet]

But that is not what you answered. Here is what you chose: "The information provided by the producer has little or no effect on my purchasing decisions". You basically looked at picture and the spec sheet said "knife".

Well, to be fair, that's generally how my purchases go. "Huh, I like the looks of that guy." and that's about as far as I get. I'm not the typical knife buyer, admittedly.

 

[Quiet]

I had the same problem with the poll. What the OP is specifically asking for are "approved uses" from manufacturers for the knives they make. It made it hard to pick an answer when the choices didn't relate at all to the proposal in post #1. Oh well, I voted "No" because it was closest to what I wanted to say. I guess I was more frustrated by the poll question than the lack of info from knife manufacturers .

Have to say I agree. For someone who clearly seems to be big on details, this poll was rather poorly conceived.

 

[James Y]

If a person needs to be told by the knife company/manufacturer all the possible tasks each knife they make is suited for and unsuited for before he/she can make a decision to buy that knife, maybe that person isn’t ready for a knife. Even if they did provide such a list for each and every model they sell, as others have stated, there are too many variables to take into account. Yes, some things are common sense.

For example, I don’t need Spyderco telling me that using the tip of a Military as a screwdriver or pry bar, or using it as a throwing knife, is going to break the tip. That’s just common sense. I don’t need Victorinox telling me that there are limits to the torque that a SAK screwdriver can take; you get a sense of those limits through actual experience/use. Some outdoorsmen have used knives that were not specifically intended as fishing or hunting knives for processing fish and game, such as a Gerber LST, Case 2-blade penknife, SAK Spartan and Executive, Spyderco Delica, PM2, Pacific Salt, etc., with zero problems.

Being scientifically-minded can be a good thing, but in some cases it can lead to over-thinking things that don’t need to be over-thought.

Jim

 

[craytab]

I guess I was more frustrated by the poll question than the lack of info from knife manufacturers .

Yes!

 

[unwisefool]

It's a knife, you don't need a doctoral thesis about the product to decide if you want it.

 

[22-rimfire]

A lot of the info provided by the maker is just to avoid lawsuits.
<snip>
Asking for such info is just unreasonable in my opinion.

Law suits, yes, sort of, but potential returns would be the biggest concern for me if I were selling knives. I agree asking for such detail is unreasonable. As a seller or manufacturer, I think one needs to avoid too much "focused" data beyond the basics.

 

[Silent H]

It's a knife, you don't need a doctoral thesis about the product to decide if you want it.

Like everyone here, I've bought a lot of knives over the years. Most have been impulse purchases or hotly anticipated new releases, and a few were older or rarer knives that I hunted the sale section for. There have been a few that I've researched, made pro and con lists, and essentially wrote a doctoral thesis on why I should buy that knife for myself. More often than not, the knives I have to research longer and convince myself to buy end up disappointing me, and I end up getting rid of them.

 

[MarkN86]

I agree, the responses are flawed.

Yes, I want some information on steel used, blade and handle dimensions, lock type, weight, general HRC target, etc. No, I don't need an engineer's rundown of how many ft lbs of lateral stress a knife can handle or how much shock I can apply to the spine when batoning. It depends on a lot of factors, most users have a general idea of what a knife can handle and scientifically minded people can research it on their own.

It's like asking the specifics on how well a sports car can drift sideways without rolling. You can't expect a manufacturer to account for road conditions, tire compound, tread, and inflation level, incline/decline, weight of passengers and cargo, road and tire temp, condition of alignment, and other important factors. They are going to say "Don't do that" so they don't get sued into oblivion. This would be the job of a race team or independent research company that would not skew the data.

 

[Karl H]

Based on feedback received, I added a couple more poll options. I could not go back and change the wording of the initial two poll options, so it is what it is. Feel free to change your vote. The poll is less important than the discussion generated.

No poll is going perfectly represent everyone's opinion. I cannot list every possible permutation of the information that each knife buyer might want from the producers. If you still don't like the poll options, feel free to create your own or just state your take in the comments without voting. Don't get too hung up on the polling options.

Feel free to put your own list of information that you want to see from producers. If you get that information from third parties and prefer to get it from third parties (e.g., Knife Steel Nerds) then let us know where you like to go for that information.

The most surprising thing to me is how many people seem to be hostile to having the manufacturers provide more information on their products, especially information that the manufacturers have and you cannot get elsewhere (e.g., toughness). I can understand not wanting more information, but hostility to the idea of wanting more information (especially on expensive knives) is surprising to me.

 

[Hackenslash]

Based on feedback received, I added a couple more poll options. I could not go back and change the wording of the initial two poll options, so it is what it is. Feel free to change your vote. The poll is less important than the discussion generated.

No poll is going perfectly represent everyone's opinion. I cannot list every possible permutation of the information that each knife buyer might want from the producers. If you still don't like the poll options, feel free to create your own or just state your take in the comments without voting. Don't get too hung up on the polling options.

Feel free to put your own list of information that you want to see from producers. If you get that information from third parties and prefer to get it from third parties (e.g., Knife Steel Nerds) then let us know where you like to go for that information.

The most surprising thing to me is how many people seem to be hostile to having the manufacturers provide more information on their products, especially information that the manufacturers have and you cannot get elsewhere (e.g., toughness). I can understand not wanting more information, but hostility to the idea of wanting more information (especially on expensive knives) is surprising to me.

I don't think its hostility, just strong opinions. It looks like most people have been in favor of more empirical data. The large majority of posters object to the notion of the manufacturer providing a list of recommended uses for a particular knife. Overall, this has been an interesting discussion.

I'm not sure if your additional poll choices did much to help those trying to pick a vote...

 

[Bastler]

Using a knife is more about experience than data. Hardness, toughness, formulation of steel are fine, I guess, but knowing this information won't change what I do with a pocket knife. General rules are as follows: Rope, wood, food, leather and similar materials can be cut with a knife. Avoid lateral loads on your blade. A knife can be damaged with the force exerted by your hand. If a can opener, screwdriver or cold chisel is a better tool, then don't use your knife for the task.

 

[danbot]

I cannot list every possible permutation of the information that each knife buyer might want from the producers.

Nor can the producers.
That's why I think it would be nice for the company to have a "technical data" area on their websites for the users that are actually interested in all of that nerdy information peppered with technical jargon that most people really just don't have the time for.

 

[midnight flyer]

K Karl H , I tend to think of the world in different terms as well. A good example of how things work here in America can be seen on any Bladeforums threads/topics that have more than a few posts. The threads lose their way quickly, and the direction gives way to debate about how someone expresses themselves, what language they use, do they use the popular vernacular of this community, and then the great debate starts about the actual debate itself with the intention and direction of the topic being long lost. (Usually around here it devolves into a lot of chest thumping and personal attacks... )

And we are indeed a society that has mastered Google-fu. Most folks have at least one belt in that art, some have several. You can earn them by endless Google searching to find support for you and your views.

Running my company I am responsible for all contracts, their content, their legality, the ability to enforce them, and if need be, go to court to defend them. Over the last 40 years of self employment I have learned this in providing information to my clients, which ties in DIRECTLY to contract law:

1) More information can mean more litigation. Say only what you need to, being clear and providing enough information to satisfy the exact job
2) More information leads to more interpretation. You cannot imagine the boundless ABSURDITY that lawyers will go to when they want to make a buck. Example: "OK, Robert, it says in your contact to paint the house that the client should wash their house (or pay to have it done) every 3 or 4 years in order to remove the dirt and grime that accumulates in order to help preserve the integrity of the paint. Is there something wrong with the paint job? Is there something wrong with the paint? Is the paint not applied correctly and you are trying to get the client to cover that fact up? More importantly, if this is an issue with this paint (and your work) why doesn't the paint manufacturer recommend or even suggest that their paint be washed?"

I used to put that in a contract in order for the client to extend the life of their paint job. Clean surfaces don't hold water or grime, don't mold, and don't deteriorate as quickly as dirty surfaces. It was meant to be helpful and informative. Yet my client used a power washer with a concrete cleaning tip to wash his house and some of the paint was damaged. It was asserted that since I had specified a maintenance requirement (spelled out as a recommendation) that I should have provided specific instruction on how to power wash the house. What type of equipment, what type of detergent, use of both, and a specific schedule of when it should be done. And it was back to "if this is important, why doesn't the manufacturer require it?"

It all stems around the fact that the manufacturer can void their material warranty if they find mold (excessive moisture), the wrong application of the product, or any instances that they find he user to be negligent. So in the manufacturer's literature they are inexact about what their product can be used for (global descriptions only), but very exact about what violates their product warranty. So the attorneys twisted that around to mean that the paint company knew their limitations all along (say, like "don't use latex wall paint on a concrete driveway") but were deliberately unclear about it when in selling mode. (This is based on my personal experience with my client, Colonel XXXX United States Army, Retired, and me using Sherwin Williams paint)

Never, ever underestimate the stupidity and the lack of personal responsibility of most consumers. Back in the 60s when I bought a knife, my CASE knives came in a little box with a tiny card with information on how to contact CASE if I needed to. Probably about 5 sentences long. Now, depending on the knife, you get a small piece of literature on the knife. Then it was found that not all purchasers spoke/read English, so the information came to be printed in multiple languages. That has been found to be a small roadblock against litigation since many people don't read the instructions. So then, it says on the packaging of most consumer products to read the instructions before using. (I bought a pry bar that came with instructions a couple of months ago!) Then it is found that many can't read, so they put a 1-800 help line on the package.

I used to have a buddy that was an authorized Benchmade and CRKT dealer. He dealt with the morons that used their knives as pry bars (literally), screw drivers, scrapers and throwing knives. When they brought them back to him, they relied on the marketing hype of "this knife will take anything you throw at it" as their defense.

If you specify all the exact parameters you want to see in your knife description, you will literally be setting up the test parameters for every YouTube testor, every nitwit "knife influencer" with a camera, and anyone else that want to challenge or hopefully break a product in order to get "eyes on". Imagine the litigation...

Robert

 

[Karl H]

What I can do is create a separate poll with individual items that people might want in the "technical data section" of a producers website. I will plan to do that, after this thread runs its course.

So far, I have seen people mention some of the following items (which are not already consistently provided by producers):
- Hardness
- Toughness
- Blade Stock Thickness
- Secondary Bevel Angle

 

[000Robert]

I know that I would like to see more technical data about the knives and the steel. I don't need to read about it's uses and stuff. I can pretty much figure that out by looking at it.
I wouldn't say that I get frustrated for lack of information, but I will leave the page quick and look for another seller that provides more info about the knife. And they will make the sell. It just seems like laziness to me when someone doesn't have much info about the knives they are selling. And if they are lazy about that, what else are they lazy about? I will usually dismiss the company, website or brand name entirely.
But I am not wealthy like it seems that most of you guys are. I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars for a knife just because it looks cool when I could buy a gun with the money.

Edit: I forgot to add that it was my way of thinking before I started perusing the forum here. If many of you guys say that a knife is of great quality, then I really don't need as much info from a seller or the maker. I trust the opinions of experts for the most part.

 

[unwisefool]

I don't think it's hostility I just think people have better things to do with their time instead of worrying about every tiny detail on what is not a major purchase.

 

[stabman]

If you need to be told by someone what to do with a knife, you should not own a knife.
Nor can you borrow mine.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Might have missed this, but overall this is a community of enthusiasts and hobbyists. So many knives can be enjoyed here based on very narrow perimeters or even a single characteristic. Yes, there are those who want to get the most out of steel, which is why we have members who have pushed the bounds of metallurgy in their area of specialty. Fundamentally though we are still looking at a commodity product, by and large. So if you want to get all the specs and technical data, there is a maker to supply that. If however your desires are to a certain design, a feature set, a personality or simply the desire to yell "WOOSHA" while slicing hanging animal carcasses, then there is also room in the market for you.

Could certain manufacturers appease three or four purchasers by publishing their QC standards? Sure. Or they can not worry about those guys, replace a few knives now and then, and focus on the majority of their customer base. Have manufacturers made mistakes in reading the market? yeah, they have, and will continue to, since no one can see the future.

If a maker opts to not provide a bit of info, that suggests to me that they do not find that info important. If I find that info important, then we don't have matching priorities, so why then would I spend my money with that maker? Would not the invisible hand of the free market guide me to a maker who matches my priorities?

If you really need to know what a knife can handle, buy two. If you only mostly need to know, there is youtube, and if you would like to know for yourself, then there is nothing for it but experience.

 

[not2sharp]

Its not the knife makers job or responsibility to tell us how the knife is to be used. Its a free country and we have the right to use the knife anyway we see fit to use that knife. Knife companies tell us the material and warranty, it is our decision if we can keep it in the tolerance of that material.

If the person needs technical instruction as to which side the blade is on and which end is the handle then maybe experiance will teach them. Can you imagine Robert Loveless or Bob Dozer standing there in front of the grinder wondering where they can get technical instructions on how to build a knife.

That would be my concern as well. That this would stifle creativity as makers would be forced to meet an arbitrary criteria defining a type of knife for a specific purpose.

n2s