Are you over Super Steels?

bodog said:
Let's say you get 1000 cuts from that knife you're about tontest, just a for instance. If you thickened the shoulders to .020" and thickened the spine to .25", how much would you estimate the performance would drop at the same edge angle?
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Wouldn't know until it was done.
 
I always think wear resistance is way overhyped when it come to edge retention seriously...

CPM-20CV will out cut steel like 52100 only when you cutting through high abrasive media with low cutting force.
52100 has wayyy much higher edge stability/ edge apex strength and much harder to micro chip than CPM-20CV...

Me and my friends who are knifemaker have done numerous robe cutting test on steel like W2/52100 against higher carbide steel like 154CM, S30V, Elmax etc. and result as those low alloy steel won every time... many time the result are dramatically difference like 60 vs 250 cut before the edge was noticable damaged snag on cutting printer paper....
 
Below is an idea for testing edge performance (in non corrosive environment). Yup, think BladeSports, you get the idea...

EdgeOlympic

Blade: Steel + ht + FFG + 4.5" cutting edge + 1 - 1.5" wide + 3/32 - 5/32" thick + clip or drop point
Handle: ~5"
Edge: Optimize 3" cutting edge for the competition (combination of tasks). 1.5" edge from tip remain dull, i.e. apex radius ~20um.

Materials:
  • M1. clean *as bought* 0.5" diameter Sisal rope
  • M2. 0.5" diameter Sisal rope has been dragged along the sand on the beach or tossed/mixed around in sandbox
  • M3. 1" oak dowel
  • M4. 0.5" thick industrial (non-food grade) cardboard
  • M5. 550 paracord
  • M6. phone book paper

Equipments:
Caliper, SiC stones, ceramic waterstones, diamond plate XX to EE.

Event - tasks (* = required):
  • E1* slow slice & push cut M6 with grain direction (top to bottom of the page).
  • E2* free form (whittle or cut or chop) cut off 2" chunk of M3.
  • E3* 100 slice M1 (note: all rope activities will be against a 2x4 backing)
  • E4* 100 push cut M1 (note: thumb or palm on spine push straight down)
  • E5* 100 slice M2
  • E6 100 push cut M2
  • E7 100 chop M2 (single strike per chop) - count complete severed
  • E8* slice 100' of M4 - 12" length each cut
  • E9 split 2 M5 shell (inside strands removed) 2" long length wise by length wise push cut with thumb/palm on spine
  • E10* sharpen(5 minutes limit) and repeat E1

Judging Points:
task: 0-10 pro-rating points per task. DQ altogether if failed to complete any *required* task.
time: +- 1 (faster/slower) point for each minute (or whatever reasonable time period) deviate from *par/baseline*
cost: +- 1 (less/more loss) point per 1um blade worst damage height deviate from *par/baseline*
 
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bodog said:
Let's say you get 1000 cuts from that knife you're about tontest, just a for instance. If you thickened the shoulders to .020" and thickened the spine to .25", how much would you estimate the performance would drop at the same edge angle?
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So I have experience on the opposite side of the spectrum. I've been fortunate to use some very fine examples of 52100 deferentially heat treated, cryogenically quenched, by a few ABS mastersmiths and apprentices. Talking between 0.0625 and 0.0984 for 6-8 inch chefs knives. These have an insane edge retention. Some of the best I've ever had the pleasure to use in a professional kitchen. I'd go further as to say I couldn't even compare the two as I feel 52100 is more on the for lack of better terms "carbon steel" side of things and CPM20CV has always seemed a stainless more like M390. Compared between the two steels, the 20CV I have to compare is 0.125, yet the 52100 runs circles around CPM20CV.
 
B34NS said:
So I have experience on the opposite side of the spectrum. I've been fortunate to use some very fine examples of 52100 deferentially heat treated, cryogenically quenched, by a few ABS mastersmiths and apprentices. Talking between 0.0625 and 0.0984 for 6-8 inch chefs knives. These have an insane edge retention. Some of the best I've ever had the pleasure to use in a professional kitchen. I'd go further as to say I couldn't even compare the two as I feel 52100 is more on the for lack of better terms "carbon steel" side of things and CPM20CV has always seemed a stainless more like M390. Compared between the two steels, the 20CV I have to compare is 0.125, yet the 52100 runs circles around CPM20CV.
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So you're saying that in your experience with real use in a real working environment that a great example of carbon steel runs circles around a great example of M390 type steels? That 52100 has great edge retention without super high amounts of certain carbides to do the cutting? Why would our experience be so different from others? I guess my experience matches yours for the same reasons but I need knives quite a bit thicker than you do. Different work, different geometries, but same steel needs? And I, too, find that these tougher steels at higher hardnesses keep their edge longer, ie, higher edge retention, longer than vanadium or chromium loaded steels. I wonder if there's some science, something, anything, that could explain why you and I have such a different view than what's currently popular with so many users and makers.

I'm curious about what you'd find after using a super thin 3V vs S110V vs a good carbon steel.
 
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bodog said:
So you're saying that, in your experience in real use in a real working environment that a great example of carbon steel runs circles around a great example of M390 type steels? That 52100 has great edge retention without super high amounts of carbide structures to do the cutting?
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Don't get me wrong, CPM20CV, Bohler M390, are fantastic steels (by Peter's HT). I have both, and enjoy them for their properties, like when I'm saltwater shorefishing. I also enjoy N680 for it's similar properties.

I think it has more to do with the who and the what in my case though. Granted my media is different from cardboard, #50lb boxes of root vegetables and animal butchery wears edges down fast. We were using these edges 16 hours a day 6 days a week just to give some perspective. Nothing that a diamond paste treated leather strop couldn't bring back to get you through the shift, where at the end of the night after cleaning the kitchen, doing the ordering, and prepping stocks, one found time to hit the whetstone on all of their knives to bring them back. A coffee, a cigarette and the morning strop, what could be a better way to start the day. With 20CV, M390, N680, I'd have to touch up by lunch staff meal, which means I wouldn't get to eat.

That said, I think it has more to do to the fine tuning of the blade geo and the multi stage cyro quench in between temper cycles. It's why I've been hesitant to ever blanket a steels character just from one or two peoples takes on it, I'll give them all a fair chance until something better just takes up all my time. :D
 
B34NS said:
Don't get me wrong, CPM20CV, Bohler M390, are fantastic steels (by Peter's HT). I have both, and enjoy them for their properties, like when I'm saltwater shorefishing. I also enjoy N680 for it's similar properties.

I think it has more to do with the who and the what in my case though. Granted my media is different from cardboard, #50lb boxes of root vegetables and animal butchery wears edges down fast. We were using these edges 16 hours a day 6 days a week just to give some perspective. Nothing that a diamond paste treated leather strop couldn't bring back to get you through the shift, where at the end of the night after cleaning the kitchen, doing the ordering, and prepping stocks, one found time to hit the whetstone on all of their knives to bring them back. A coffee, a cigarette and the morning strop, what could be a better way to start the day. With 20CV, M390, N680, I'd have to touch up by lunch staff meal, which means I wouldn't get to eat.

That said, I think it has more to do to the fine tuning of the blade geo and the multi stage cyro quench in between temper cycles. It's why I've been hesitant to ever blanket a steels character just from one or two peoples takes on it, I'll give them all a fair chance until something better just takes up all my time. :D
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No doubt. That last paragraph should probably be the most important thing to take from this entire thread.
 
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Some in this thread might find Messerklingen und Stahl by knife maker aand metallurgist R. Landes interesting. Well worth the read if your willing to struggle through the translations.
 
marthinus said:
Some in this thread might find Messerklingen und Stahl by knife maker aand metallurgist R. Landes interesting. Well worth the read if your willing to struggle through the translations.
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Which kind of knife user would like it? Those seeking to maximize edge retention via strength and toughness or those seeking to maximize edge retention via strength and hard carbides?

Nevermind, here's a thread with the guy talking about it. Basically he's a materials scientist and knifesmith who says that you can take steels like O1 thinner than something like S90V because the edge on the O1 can withstand the more extreme angles without the carbides. In short, he seems to be saying that at thin angles leading to higher efficiency cutting O1 type steels have higher edge retention than S90V type steels precisely because they don't have hard, brittle carbides to break the edge out. I don't know if a lot of people want to know this stuff because it conflicts with what they already believe.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/344902-Edges-and-Steels
 
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me2 said:
So does that mean you think the results I posted are possible, or do you still think I just made it up or did some sort of "cooked" test?
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Don't think it's possible based on what I have seen in testing.
 
I read a book by John.D Verhoeven. He pointed out that stainless steels with C: 0.67; Cr: 13.00; Mn: 0.60;
P: 0.025; S: 0.015; Si: 0.40; composition is the best choice for knife blades AKA "AEB-L" or equivalents. I don't think it's the best choice for cutting abrasive materials like carpet with sand in it. I want to read through DR Romen Landes book but the only person I know that speaks German is not likely to translate it for me.
 
Wow, what the hell just happened to the last hour of my life?? Well, first, thank you to the 4-5 main guys posting throughout this thread, you've made a boring afternoon 1 hour shorter...I don't know if I learned anything, in fact no, I didn't. I have to touch on one subject though, it's the one theme that really bothered me and kept me reading at the same time...and that theme is dickishness. It's a word, look it up (don't look it up, it's not a word). Instead of a helpful exchange of knowledge between different people with varying backgrounds, which could have/would have lead to an enriched understanding of knife metallurgy and could have helped to inform us knife lovers in future decisions, it was instead a junior-high school - "I'm right and you're wrong" and no matter what you say, and I mean no matter what you say (even if you repeated what I just said) I'm going to crap all over what you say and reiterate to those following along just how stupid you are. I found it at once hard to resist and hard to stomach...like the old cliché of not being able to look away from a car crash. What's really interesting to me, is that I found myself, at the beginning of the thread, thinking that guy X was ill informed and looking forward to guys Y and Z educating him....but from there on out what I saw was guys Y and Z ganging up on guy X in the most arrogant and dismissive ways imaginable...and further, I found myself feeling proud of guy X (even though I don't believe I agreed with him fundamentally) for having the testicular fortitude to at once not sink to an offensive level and be able to stand up for himself against the "cool kids" who ruled this environment of hostility that guy X found himself drowning in. Again, I didn't feel this way at all because I thought guy X was making better points than Y and Z, because nobody was trying to actually discuss knife metallurgy, they were trying to pat themselves on the back in a thread/forum where they knew they'd be supported by most people chiming in. We are grown ass men, aren't we?
 
VanDammet said:
Wow, what the hell just happened to the last hour of my life?? Well, first, thank you to the 4-5 main guys posting throughout this thread, you've made a boring afternoon 1 hour shorter...I don't know if I learned anything, in fact no, I didn't. I have to touch on one subject though, it's the one theme that really bothered me and kept me reading at the same time...and that theme is dickishness. It's a word, look it up (don't look it up, it's not a word). Instead of a helpful exchange of knowledge between different people with varying backgrounds, which could have/would have lead to an enriched understanding of knife metallurgy and could have helped to inform us knife lovers in future decisions, it was instead a junior-high school - "I'm right and you're wrong" and no matter what you say, and I mean no matter what you say (even if you repeated what I just said) I'm going to crap all over what you say and reiterate to those following along just how stupid you are. I found it at once hard to resist and hard to stomach...like the old cliché of not being able to look away from a car crash. What's really interesting to me, is that I found myself, at the beginning of the thread, thinking that guy X was ill informed and looking forward to guys Y and Z educating him....but from there on out what I saw was guys Y and Z ganging up on guy X in the most arrogant and dismissive ways imaginable...and further, I found myself feeling proud of guy X (even though I don't believe I agreed with him fundamentally) for having the testicular fortitude to at once not sink to an offensive level and be able to stand up for himself against the "cool kids" who ruled this environment of hostility that guy X found himself drowning in. Again, I didn't feel this way at all because I thought guy X was making better points than Y and Z, because nobody was trying to actually discuss knife metallurgy, they were trying to pat themselves on the back in a thread/forum where they knew they'd be supported by most people chiming in. We are grown ass men, aren't we?
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Damn it, now I have to go back and reread the thread to figure out who guys x, y, and z were
 
Firestrike said:
I like me some D2, S30v, 154cm, 1095, Infi, and SR101. Don't need anymore of the latest and greatest, seems like I'm giving up more than I gain with newer steels...
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Agreed! The quality and availability of steels now is so great it's easy to take something like D2 for granted. How much "better" do we really need?
 
Ankerson said:
Don't think it's possible based on what I have seen in testing.
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I see you evidently are going with option B, and think I'm either making it up or running some sort of "cooked" test. If you're interested in trying to figure out why each of our testing has us reaching such different conclusions, feel free to continue in the inexpensive knives thread in the testing forum.
 
bodog said:
I'm curious about what you'd find after using a super thin 3V vs S110V vs a good carbon steel.
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Me too, just waiting on a buddy to get settled in his new shop in the next few months to try it out and see! :thumbup:
 
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