Arkansas stones and oil, a 'cultural' thing?

Marvel Mystery Oil has oil of wintergreen in it. You can definitely smell it. I have been using Marvel's air tool oil for a few years on my arkansas and India stones and it seems to be an excellent honing oil. It also appears to be an excellent weapons lube. I think I read that Marvel air tool oil is a blend of mineral and petroleum oils. 5 weight is a good viscosity for honing oil IMO. My stones clean up with ease.
 
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Mineral oil is fine for soft arks and Washita's but too thick for the hard arks.
 
The solution for 'too thick' mineral oil is to use a lighter grade of it, and apply it very minimally. Mineral oil can be found in a wide range of viscosities. Oils like Norton's Sharpening Stone Oil are much lighter & thinner, as compared to the laxative-grade stuff found at the grocery store, for example.

Save the 'good stuff' (the lighter, thinner grades) for hard stones that don't drink a lot of oil. Apply it in just a few drops rubbed across the surface, to leave a very thin, shiny film. Use the heavier, more viscous oil for the real 'thirsty' stones that'd otherwise drink up too much of the expensive stuff. My real thirsty oil stones get stored in a bath of the laxative-grade, heavy stuff (see below). That way, I don't have to soak 'em down every time I use them.
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There's different viscosities of mineral oil. The kind sold at Tractor Supply and other feed-n'-seed places for use in animal feed is thinner than the USP pharmacy stuff. You can deal with "thirsty" stones by warming vaseline until it liquifies in a pan and allowing it to permeate a stone. It then only requires a little oil for the surface after that point.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
There's different viscosities of mineral oil. The kind sold at Tractor Supply and other feed-n'-seed places for use in animal feed is thinner than the USP pharmacy stuff. You can deal with "thirsty" stones by warming vaseline until it liquifies in a pan and allowing it to permeate a stone. It then only requires a little oil for the surface after that point.
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Yes, that works pretty well. I'd done it with a couple of mine, but forgot about that. I applied the vaseline directly atop the stones, heavily like thick cake frosting. Then used a heat gun to warm it up. Actually pretty neat to watch it liquify and sink right into the stones. They drank a lot of it, too.
 
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Off topic but… why aren’t Arkansas stones talked about more?

I may be still on the honeymoon but literally this translucent Arkansas (burnished on one side and flattened on 400grit the other) stone I just got out performs a dozen or so other top rated stones I have.

The feedback is absolutely incredible for me compared to everything I’ve used and literally takes sharpening to another level of ease and predictability.
 
Mostly because they're only just barely harder than fully hardened steel, and even steels with a meaningful amount of chromium carbides quickly glaze them.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Mostly because they're only just barely harder than fully hardened steel, and even steels with a meaningful amount of chromium carbides quickly glaze them.
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Thx for reply. I wonder why I haven’t had an issue yet. Is it because I’m mostly finishing on it?

I put the best edge I’ve managed free hand on the following so far with no issues…

CPM s30v Spyderco
Mundail Chefs knife

For the mundail I used a Debado 200 grit and chosera 400 then finished on each side of the Arkansas.

The Spyderco was just touched up on the Arkansas Translucent. Previously it was probably finished on a chosera 3000.
 
Either it isn't glazed yet and you're still getting some abrasion out of it due to the low wear put on the stone due to only being used for finishing, or you're burnishing your edge and getting a steel-like effect out of it rather than actually getting much abrasion.

The Mundial has chromium in it by virtue of being stainless, but it should be mostly free chromium rather than chromium carbides. The S30V is going to have less edge retention and less keen of an edge than an equal degree of refinement done on CBN or diamond stones because it's unable to effectively abrade the vanadium carbides, and they're going to be left in essentially their whole shape.
 
rm41400 said:
Thx for reply. I wonder why I haven’t had an issue yet. Is it because I’m mostly finishing on it?

I put the best edge I’ve managed free hand on the following so far with no issues…

CPM s30v Spyderco
Mundail Chefs knife

For the mundail I used a Debado 200 grit and chosera 400 then finished on each side of the Arkansas.

The Spyderco was just touched up on the Arkansas Translucent. Previously it was probably finished on a chosera 3000.
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The S30V will eventually glaze the translucent. If you're just doing light finishing with the stone, it won't happen immediately. But it will eventually.

Even after glazing, there can still be a benefit from simple burnishing, even if the stone isn't abrading much of the S30V. I view a translucent or black hard Arkansas stone much like a polished kitchen steel, when used on wear-resistant steels. They can work well for aligning edges, which will improve sharpness. But if the edge otherwise blunts or rounds off with use, it'll be much more difficult to bring it back with the Arkansas stone, on S30V. Same behavior can be seen in trying to do the same with alumina ceramic hones, on steels with significant vanadium content (>3% or so).
 
Very helpful! Ty! The steeling effect makes perfect sense on the s30v spyderco as it was already a refined edge.

I can see a usb microscope would be helpful if I want to see exactly what’s happening at each step.
 
cudgee said:
What do you use/suggest for the hard Ark's?
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Any light oil will do, so will water, or soap and water. I don't see much difference in any of it as long as it's thin enough to ensure stone to edge contact. No need to worry about going back and forth between oil and water on the harder arks there is so little absorption in those stones they wash up very well.

Arks are very easy to maintain. I usually use a worn diamond plate or wet dry paper should they glaze and stop cutting as fast as I would like, it only takes a few seconds. Don't use a diamond plate you care about.
 
garry3 said:
Any light oil will do, so will water, or soap and water. I don't see much difference in any of it as long as it's thin enough to ensure stone to edge contact. No need to worry about going back and forth between oil and water on the harder arks there is so little absorption in those stones they wash up very well.

Arks are very easy to maintain. I usually use a worn diamond plate or wet dry paper should they glaze and stop cutting as fast as I would like, it only takes a few seconds. Don't use a diamond plate you care about.
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Thanks for your reply. I have actually made my own mixture, it has the consistency of oil, but is water based so just washes off. :thumbsup:
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Yes, Arkansas stones can glaze very quickly, if not adequately lubricated. Oil does that better than water, keeping the surface more uniformly 'wetted' than water will. In a dry environment, water evaporates too quickly from the surface of the stone. Oil also does a better job suspending swarf above the working surface, allowing much easier cleaning of the stone, whereas swarf will sink and clog the stone if used with water. And a clogged stone tends to encourage use of greater pressure in grinding, which then tends to increase wear and glazing of the abrasive. So the clogging and glazing go hand-in-hand, somewhat. Oil works better to minimize both.

Glazing can also be caused by grinding steels that are more wear-resistant than the grit of the stone itself. The carbides in wear-resistant steels are much harder than the novaculite grit in the stone. So effectively, the carbides will wear & polish the stone's grit. So one needs to be choosy about the steel types sharpened on Arkansas stones, for the sake of the stone's working usefulness and longevity. Ark stones are really at their best performance with simpler carbon steels like 1095, CV, etc. and low-alloy stainless like 420HC. With anything more wear-resistant than that, the grit begins to struggle to work efficiently and other issues present themselves, like premature stone wear and glazing.
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Great explanation answering why I had such problems with Arkansas stones that I gave them up. I have a number of very high quality AG Russell soft and hard Arkansas stones, and a bunch of cheap Washita. And I don't use them anymore.

ePiujjS.jpg


Arkansas stones more or less worked with 1055 and 1095, they would put an edge on 420, but, it was hard to get a good 420 edge. Arkansas stones were not an agressive stock remover, so I ended up with rounded edges. This was before fixtures, and I still sharpen everything by hand. (Is it called free hand?)

And then, oh my God, things like AUS 8, ATS 34, D2, appeared on knives, and I had to buy diamond stones to get an edge! Even my old carborendum stones were outclassed

1ogNxtN.jpg


Today, I only use the India stone side of these Norton stones, the India is medium, and I use the India stone after setting the bevel on a diamond stone. A medium India will knock the burr off and center the edge, if need be.

k4wxpl1.jpg


blast from the past

HXQMCAF.jpg


Still, if I happen to pull out an Arkansas stone I use water not oil. To clean the stone I rub lava soap into the pores and use a stiff hand brush to remove what I can. I do this with the India stones too. I can feel a difference after scrubbing. Oil was just a mess and not worth the bother.
 
helobite said:
Great explanation answering why I had such problems with Arkansas stones that I gave them up. I have a number of very high quality AG Russell soft and hard Arkansas stones, and a bunch of cheap Washita. And I don't use them anymore.

ePiujjS.jpg


Arkansas stones more or less worked with 1055 and 1095, they would put an edge on 420, but, it was hard to get a good 420 edge. Arkansas stones were not an agressive stock remover, so I ended up with rounded edges. This was before fixtures, and I still sharpen everything by hand. (Is it called free hand?)

And then, oh my God, things like AUS 8, ATS 34, D2, appeared on knives, and I had to buy diamond stones to get an edge! Even my old carborendum stones were outclassed

1ogNxtN.jpg


Today, I only use the India stone side of these Norton stones, the India is medium, and I use the India stone after setting the bevel on a diamond stone. A medium India will knock the burr off and center the edge, if need be.

k4wxpl1.jpg


blast from the past

HXQMCAF.jpg


Still, if I happen to pull out an Arkansas stone I use water not oil. To clean the stone I rub lava soap into the pores and use a stiff hand brush to remove what I can. I do this with the India stones too. I can feel a difference after scrubbing. Oil was just a mess and not worth the bother.
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AUS-8, ATS-34, and D2 are all easily sharpened on silicon carbide and aluminum oxide stones. If you were struggling with knives made in those steels with that abrasive it was an issue with something other than the abrasive type.
 
Yes, steels like AUS-8, ATS-34 and D2, can be easily ground on aluminum oxide (India) and silicon carbide (Norton Crystolon and so-named 'Carborundum' stones).

There can be other issues which make things a little more challenging. If the old, heavily-used stones are clogged, for example, that can render them ineffective until they're cleaned and/or resurfaced. And some steels, like ATS-34, can be challenging in the refinement stages, with very strong/stiff burrs that don't remove easily. ATS-34 might be at the very top of my burring pet peeve list, for this reason. And D2 will grind very easily on silicon carbide, so setting bevels can be very easy on these stones. But again, in refining, sometimes D2 can be fickle as well. I prefer using diamond for that on D2, which delicately thins & shapes the big carbides in D2, all done at a very light touch (this is IDEAL for finishing & refinement on any blade with any stone).

And the learning curve for different stones can take a while too. Each will respond differently to use of pressure in grinding stages. A SiC stone, for example, responds well to fairly aggressive use of pressure when setting bevels or thinning/reprofiling edges. An aluminum oxide oil stone, like the India, can be used at fairly heavy pressure too. But it may tend to introduce more burring issues in doing so with some steels (AUS-8, ATS-34, VG-10, etc). A diamond hone is at its best when used with only moderate pressure in grinding stages, and featherlight in finishing stages. All will have different feedback & feel as well, which can make figuring them out more challenging too. Kind of have to recalibrate your touch and your senses via your fingertips, in switching between different types of stones.
 
The old saying used to be "D2 takes a bad edge and holds it all day." I don't wholly agree with that statement but do agree with the *sentiment* of it. D2 tends to be a pain in the finishing phase, and getting a good crisp apex on it can be frustrating at times. This is largely because its carbides tend to be huge and chonky.
 
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