Arkansas Stones: Are They Still Considered Good?

eKretz said:
Tungsten carbide proper is actually a ceramic. Tungsten carbide as the term is commonly used is a sinter formed of tungsten carbide particles and Cobalt metal particles. The ratio of the two is varied to alter the necessary mechanical properties.

Regarding Arkansas stones, yes they are still very useful for carbon steels, not so much for the steels containing many harder carbides. I use mine all the time for old school pocket knives (like Case, etc.), lower hardness simple alloy kitchen knives, chisels and straight razors
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That's interesting that you mention the use of Arkansas Stones for sharpening Straight Razors. However most of the straight razor hones I've collected over the years don't seem to be made with novaculite. Whatever abrasive they used in most of those Straight razor hones is extremely fine in most of them I've collected over the years. I have 4 of them made by "Columbia" who I assume must have made Straight Razors themselves. I've also seen a lot of the stones for straight razors made by Keen Kutter too. But I've never been told what exactly they use for straight razor hones.

Personally for my own Straight Razor I've been using my Spyderco, Ultra-Fine, model 302 Benchstone and having very good results too I might add. But I'm wide open for suggestions if there is anything better out there. I would imagine that novaculite and especially the really fine/hard grades of it would work well with the older Razors but the newer alloy razors made by Boker and J. A. Henckel I would think would need a much harder abrasive?
 
Most of the modern straight razors are still plain carbon steel, excepting of course those made from stainless. I've had no issues bringing up the final edge on any I've honed with Arks - excepting the one I made myself from HSS. There are some custom makers using the more exotic steels also.

The hones you're mentioning sound like barber hones, which are in a whole different category than an Ark. Those are synthetic hones, much in the same vein as a modern Shapton or Naniwa except with far harder binders. There were historically many different natural hones used for razor honing. Some of the more commonly used historical natural razor finishing stones are Japanese water stones (JNats in common parlance), Thuringian hones (Escher is a famous brand), coticules, La Lunes, Arkansas stones, Silkstones, Charnley Forest hones, Water of Ayr hones, and several others.

If you are getting great edges from the Spyderco, I'd stop right there. Starting down the rabbit hole of "I wonder what kind of edge this new stone might produce" usually ends up an expensive proposition. Additionally, I own probably 80+ razor hones. I have used the Spyderco UF, and find it to be an excellent razor hone.
 
eKretz said:
Most of the modern straight razors are still plain carbon steel, excepting of course those made from stainless. I've had no issues bringing up the final edge on any I've honed with Arks - excepting the one I made myself from HSS. There are some custom makers using the more exotic steels also.

The hones you're mentioning sound like barber hones, which are in a whole different category than an Ark. Those are synthetic hones, much in the same vein as a modern Shapton or Naniwa except with far harder binders. There were historically many different natural hones used for razor honing. Some of the more commonly used historical natural razor finishing stones are Japanese water stones (JNats in common parlance), Thuringian hones (Escher is a famous brand), coticules, La Lunes, Arkansas stones, Silkstones, Charnley Forest hones, Water of Ayr hones, and several others.
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Thank you for the great list of the different types of razor hones. There is one in particular on your list that I've heard great things about. I'm speaking of the one called "COTICULES">> a barber I used to know told me of that stone quite a while ago. He said that it was called the "Belgium Razor Stone" and he said that over in Europe for instance that most Barbers just swore by those "Belgium Razor Stones". In the late 90s when Spyderco was selling their stuff through a retailer called "IRONSTONE" they sold those "coticules" stones and I heard that those were a good grade of coticules as well.

Do you know much about those? Where can a person get a really good quality Belgium Razor Stone here in the USA? I was told that there are different grades of them. Because I would love to try one out. I've heard that they are considerably harder than the Arkansas stones and are still used today.
 
You're welcome. Coticules can be fantastic stones for razors as long as you take the time to get to know the stone. The common designation is "Belgian razor hone" as they are mined in Belgium. Historically these were probably one of the most common stones used by barbers. They do vary somewhat more than something like an Ark in terms of speed and hardness though. Some are very easy to get a razor edge with and some require some work on the part of the operator.

I would try to find one from someone secondhand at one of the razor forums personally, as then you will be more likely to get what you're looking for. Unless you're able to take a vacation trip to Belgium, in which case I believe if you arrange it ahead of time you can go to the mine or store and personally try out a bunch and select a stone. Most any coticule will be good for knife work though even if it isn't ideal for razors. The abrasive contained in these stones is garnet, which is a bit harder than silicon dioxide, which is the abrasive found in many natural stones. Garnet will cut most modern knife steels but won't give the best edge with those containing the harder carbides.

The very good coticules are fast cutters and produce an excellent edge on carbon and stainless. Coticules can be fairly hard, but Arks are pretty well the king of hard natural stones. A translucent or black Arkansas stone are about as hard as they get. I have never personally encountered a harder natural razor stone than an Ark. Some folks use stones like Jasper or jadeite which are a bit harder, but those are not very common and can be difficult to use.
 
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jc57 said:
Most of my pocket knives are made from basic steels and Arkansas stones work fine with them.
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You know something??? Here's how it is with me>> Ever since I was a teenager ( my parents called me a Mean-ager:D) I've always gone with the philosophy that states "Whatever Works" :cool: And Brother if that works for you then more power to you. However I've been materialistically spoiled with Spyderco and other premium blades to where a "plain Jane" folder just won't do it for me anymore. So I have no choice but to also go up the ladder with sharpening gear to accommodate the super alloy blades that I've grown fond of.

But I'm not going to pitch any of my old/antiquated stuff either because I know in my gut that it will serve some type of valid purpose at some later date. I'm still wondering if some of these older stones couldn't serve as being a type of "hard strop" of some sort?
 
eKretz said:
You're welcome. Coticules can be fantastic stones for razors as long as you take the time to get to know the stone. The common designation is "Belgian razor hone" as they are mined in Belgium. Historically these were probably one of the most common stones used by barbers. They do vary somewhat more than something like an Ark in terms of speed and hardness though. Some are very easy to get a razor edge with and some require some work on the part of the operator.

I would try to find one from someone secondhand at one of the razor forums personally, as then you will be more likely to get what you're looking for. Unless you're able to take a vacation trip to Belgium, in which case I believe if you arrange it ahead of time you can go to the mine or store and personally try out a bunch and select a stone.
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I want to thank you again "eKretz" for all the great information you've shared with us on both of these threads I put out. And thank you for sharing all that info on your post about 5 up from this one. That list of all the different stones is one I'm going to do some checking on for sure. A few of those stones I've never heard of before and I'm definitely going to be spending some time soon looking them up.

Hey I've got another really old and probably would be considered a really "odd ball" type stone but believe it or not I've actually had some good results with it on some J.A.Henckel and Wustof kitchen Knives I found at a local thrift store and I was wanting to see what you might know about it. I got it on Ebay about 10 years ago and it's a really old NORTON stone and they call it the "Queer Creek" stone. It's sort of coarse but not too coarse and it removes stock at a fairly rapid rate for a natural stone. They say that Norton many years ago had a location here in the USA where they quarried the stuff. I was told that woodworkers used to really like those old "Queer Creek" stones a lot. But before I got mine I had never even heard of it before. So I was kind of wanting to know what you might know about it. It is for sure a natural stone just like novaculite or coticules for that matter>> I have no idea what it rates on the Moh's Hardness Scale. Any info would be highly appreciated. Thanks again for all your help.
 
You're more than welcome. Yes I am familiar with the Queer Creek stones. I own several examples. To the best of my recollection the Queer Creek is a sandstone that was originally quarried in Ohio. Other names the stones were known by are Ohio Blue stone or Berea stone. It's a mid-level grit stone that cuts fairly well for non-exotic steels. Best results will be obtained by keeping it somewhat coarsely lapped so that it can freely shed dull grit particles.
 
I collect vintage scythe stones, both natural and synthetic, and have some Indian Pond stones (the very stones that caused Pike to get started as a business in the first place) and they're a very distinct micaceous schist.
 
deltaboy said:
I have 90 % Carbon Steel Knives! Ark Stones work fine and my Black Ark stone gives them a fine edge!
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And that's great that they work for you. Because when I launched this thread that is one of many questions I wanted answered. When I got a Buck Knife years ago with my first set of Buck's Arkansas Stones way back in the 70s those stones worked great for many years until I got into some of these newer and much harder blade steels. I'm not going to get rid of any of my Arkansas Stones because I rarely throw anything away that I think might eventually have some valid use to it.

I'm am surprised however to see that with the exception of "diamond" it doesn't seem like Mother Nature have many good materials for sharpening stones ( at least that we know of) for these newer superalloys. I really am sort of surprised that man-made ceramics of many types have proven to be far superior to most of what planet earth has to offer us for sharpening stones.

Now there was a really excellent magazine article a few months back ( around March I think) by knife designer and martial arts expert Michael Janich on survival type sharpening and all the things you could find in nature and in junk piles both that make decent emergency sharpening tools. It was in one of the issues of OFF GRID magazine and it was earlier in this year 2018 and I encourage you all to check it out.
 
When the method of producing silicon carbide was discovered it was absolutely revolutionary.

 
Yup. Aluminum oxide can be found in nature, but it's not found in chunks large and homogenous enough to make a sharpening stone from. And don't forget nature has EVERY other abrasive bested in hardness with diamond. It's relative hardness that dictates the ability of an abrasive to cut.
 
eKretz said:
Yup. Aluminum oxide can be found in nature, but it's not found in chunks large and homogenous enough to make a sharpening stone from. And don't forget nature has EVERY other abrasive bested in hardness with diamond. It's relative hardness that dictates the ability of an abrasive to cut.
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Hey "eKretz" aren't there actually more properties to abrasive materials than merely just their hardness alone? Because I read an article in a very old issue of "Knives Illustrated" magazine from the late 90s . And they were talking about all the different types of abrasive diamonds. I remember them talking about polycrystalline, Monocrystalline ( which they consider the best) and if I remember correctly there were two other types of diamond grit/abrasives as well. The article pointed out all the advantages of Monocrystalline diamonds and said that they were the "Creme-de-le-Creme" and the very best type of diamonds for using in sharpening jobs.

For years I've seen many commerically made diamond sharpening tools and most of the companies point out that they only use the Monocrystalline diamonds in their sharpening tools. DMT for instance is a big, well respected company in the production of diamond sharpening tools and I believe I've heard them say that they only use the Monocrystalline diamonds in their well crafted tools.

So could that be the case with other abrasives like aluminum oxide, Silicon Carbide, garnet, novaculite, obsidian and several of the newer synthetic abrasives too? I admit I'm not sure at all. And I'm not completely sold that Monocrystalline diamonds are the only ones with any good abrasive properties either. My jury is still out but it is a good question to ponder?
 
JD Spydo said:
Hey "eKretz" aren't there actually more properties to abrasive materials than merely just their hardness alone? Because I read an article in a very old issue of "Knives Illustrated" magazine from the late 90s . And they were talking about all the different types of abrasive diamonds. I remember them talking about polycrystalline, Monocrystalline ( which they consider the best) and if I remember correctly there were two other types of diamond grit/abrasives as well. The article pointed out all the advantages of Monocrystalline diamonds and said that they were the "Creme-de-le-Creme" and the very best type of diamonds for using in sharpening jobs.

For years I've seen many commerically made diamond sharpening tools and most of the companies point out that they only use the Monocrystalline diamonds in their sharpening tools. DMT for instance is a big, well respected company in the production of diamond sharpening tools and I believe I've heard them say that they only use the Monocrystalline diamonds in their well crafted tools.

So could that be the case with other abrasives like aluminum oxide, Silicon Carbide, garnet, novaculite, obsidian and several of the newer synthetic abrasives too? I admit I'm not sure at all. And I'm not completely sold that Monocrystalline diamonds are the only ones with any good abrasive properties either. My jury is still out but it is a good question to ponder?
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There are tons of different grades (analogous to alloys in steel) of abrasives. For instance, in my range of sharpening stones, the Arctic Fox series uses a blue aluminum oxide produced by "alloying" it with iron and titanium, which gives the grains a particular shape and a medium friability, as well as its icy blue color (literally synthetic classic blue sapphire). By contrast, the Bull Thistle series is also aluminum oxide, but it's a ruby grit made by the addition of chromium, which greatly increases the toughness of the abrasive grains. In the Manticore series, black and green silicon carbide are used in an 80/20 ratio respectively. The green is much more friable than the black, and breaks down first, reducing the contact surface against the blade, which increases the pressure on the black grains. This then allows the black grains to fracture and shed and expose more green ones, and the process repeats. It's what helps it maintain an aggressive texture despite the tendency of large grains to get slippery-feeling due to their large surfaces.

In diamond, polycrystalline cuts faster and is more friable, allowing it to refresh its cutting surface, while monocrystalline is tougher. Polycrystalline will wear out faster as a result, but is more time-efficient and also leaves a better surface finish. It's also more expensive than monocrystalline.
 
I absolutely love my Arkansas stones and I will never be without them! I have posted here about my tribulations using them on steels like ZDP and S90V but they do just fine for me on steels like XHP and VG10.

So far, all of my kitchen cutlery gets honed on Arkansas stones and I freaking love the edge they produce. I may or may not go past the hard to a black but quite often just stop on the hard and then stop. Same for most of my pocket knives.

I reckon these days I'm in the minority in that I'm not all that enamored with "super" hard steels. I've played with them now and satiated that thirst and am back to the so-called "lesser" alloys.

I think it is awesome those steels are out there and I think it is awesome to have that choice be it for hobby or task specific reasons but for me, I've come to learn what I reckon I always really knew, in general, I just don't need them.

I'll continue to build my sharpening kit inventory and flexibility but Arkansas stones work great for me and are far from outdated!
 
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Bond type, grit/bond ratio, grit protrusion, and press pressure also greatly affect cut rate and surface finish. There's a lot of variables at play.
 
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eKretz said:
Hardness dictates what the abrasive is able to cut. Shape, friability and orientation dictate how fast and what kind of finish is left behind. This is a large and involved subject.
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Shape and friablilty play a bigger role then people give credit.

Here is SiC cutting a ceramic knife.
CFsniGl.jpg


Shouldn't be possible if it worked on hardness alone
 
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