Arkansas Stones: Are They Still Considered Good?

[Wowbagger]

Arks are really only usually used for that last little bit of polish. Glazed stones actually do a better job for this - straight razor users actually intentionally glaze the stones to get a finer finish

Yeah !
Pictures !
Interesting; thanks.
Isn't Agate the stone to use for actual burnishing ?
How hard is that ? (I didn't find it in the hardness table posted earlier).

 

[eKretz]

Agate can work too, but it seems to be more prone to creating a weak edge for some reason. I think the Arks still cut just enough when glazed up to keep that from occurring. Agate will be similar in hardness to a black or translucent Ark, maybe just a tad harder binder-wise though.

 

[Wowbagger]

Agate can work too, but it seems to be more prone to creating a weak edge for some reason. I think the Arks still cut just enough when glazed up to keep that from occurring. Agate will be similar in hardness to a black or translucent Ark, maybe just a tad harder binder-wise though.

Super interesting and enlightening.
Thank you !

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

In my experience, the softer the steel, the finer the stones it sees large benefit from. The harder the steel, the coarser of stones it benefits from. That is to say, that a coarse stone on hard steel acts even coarser on fine steel, and a fine stone on soft steel acts even finer on hard steel, to the point where stones that barely would do anything to high-hardness steel even if using synthetic abrasives (due simply to being so fine, not due to not cutting) work very nicely at refining soft steels. By contrast, stones that would positively devour soft steel work well for producing pretty nice slicing edges on hard steel, and for medium-grade touchups and damage removal.

In the scythe world, American, English, and Nordic scythes have quite hard blades, while continental European ones are only about as hard as a made-in-Mexico hardware store axe, and are beveled periodically by peening the edge with a specialized hammer and anvil to draw it out. Euro blades often see benefit from extremely fine natural stones that do almost nothing to American blades.

If I lived in an era before the advent of synthetic abrasives I think I'd probably be opting for steel tempered soft enough for an extra-fine file to cut and I'd use that as my coarse option.

 

[Wowbagger]

In the scythe world, American, English, and Nordic scythes have quite hard blades, while continental European ones are only about as hard as a made-in-Mexico hardware store axe, and are beveled periodically by peening the edge with a specialized hammer and anvil to draw it out. Euro blades often see benefit from extremely fine natural stones that do almost nothing to American blades.

What I am eyeing the Black Ark for are these :
SAK with super reprofiled edge extra acute for cutting very soft materials using oil on the material and blade to give a very professional looking finish.
and
two box knives also reprofiled and polished edge (pretty much).
On the little one I have been experimenting with a toothy edge stropped on the hunk of leather shown with 600 diamond paste ON THE SMOOTH SIDE the label shown is on the back.

I had hopes for my Spyderco Triangle rod Ulta Fine for use on these squishy blades in the photo but that tends to not only form a bur but then not be able to take it off even going edge leading.

I hate stropping so I am always on the look out for a stone that will debur for me instead.

As you said the harder edges respond differently than softer edges. It is way over in left field but I was shocked to find the diamond on the strop did NOTHING for my ceramic knife. For that I have had at least passible improvement on SiC wet or dry paper. Some day I will get back to focusing on learning to sharpen Ceramic blades.

For now I want a highly portable / small tool to touch up several soft bladed tools at work. Some of them shown in the photo . . . there are others.
When will we just be able to get M4 in all blades and I can simply just use my nice Spyderco Ultra Fine . . . works perfect for M4. Life could be so simple.
Call me : The Dreamer
PS: for anyone saying "that black handled Gerber box knife sucks; the blade pops out" I say . . . not if you pean the crap out of the holder until the blade is all but not removable . All the more reason to strop / touch up. I simply love this box knife once I did that. Super great clip (will even clip to a thick tool belt or bag) and the handle is reminiscent of a Griptillian but even better (has rubberized surface)

 

[Wowbagger]

Would you say a Black Ark pocket stone as I posted early on in this thread would be significantly better than the Spyderco Ultra Fine Triangle Rod for touching up slightly dulled thin box knife blades and the thinly reprofiled SAK steel shown ?
He said with his hand hovering over the Black Ark Buy button . . .

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I get my best box cutter edges off of an American Mutt stone. That thing gives me crazy-aggressive cardboard slicing edges with just a few quick swipes on either side.

As far as the SAK goes, I'd say yes, from the standpoint that the sharpmaker rods have a much smaller contact surface that will increase pressure and result in those rolled apexes, as well as the fact that the way they don't shed grit at all means you've probably got a rod that's burnishing more than abrading. You want it abrading.

 

[Wowbagger]

American Mutt stone

Good ! And looks like they make a pocket stone !
Wow . . . something not listed on "The Earth's Biggest selection".

As far as the SAK goes, I'd say yes, from the standpoint that the sharpmaker rods have a much smaller contact surface that will increase pressure and result in those rolled apexes, as well as the fact that the way they don't shed grit at all means you've probably got a rod that's burnishing more than abrading. You want it abrading.

For the SAK I need it polished edge, I guess I will stick to my little chunk of Norton 8,000.

Thanks.
PS: sounds like the Black Ark sucks for both applications then . . . is that right ?

 

[Wowbagger]

.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Good ! And looks like they make a pocket stone !
Wow . . . something not listed on "The Earth's Biggest selection".



For the SAK I need it polished edge, I guess I will stick to my little chunk of Norton 8,000.

Thanks.
PS: sounds like the Black Ark sucks for both applications then . . . is that right ?

The black Arkansas would work fine on the SAK, it's just a very expensive solution. Hard stones are great for apexing, but you still want even very fine stones to be cutting, not burnishing. If it's burnishing that means it's just rubbing without actually removing material.

 

[Eli Chaps]

My first time sharpening BD1N. Soft Ark to Black Ark to green compound strop to bare leather.

Beautifully sharp!

 

[eKretz]

It still baffles me that Mother Nature gave us "Diamond" which is the hardest abrasive known to us as of this day. But yet nature doesn't seem to have any abrasive that I personally would consider a close second.

I think the future truly lies in ceramic technology from what I see at this time. I think maybe in our lifetimes we will see them develop a ceramic that might be as hard or close to being as hard as diamond>> and I don't think that technology is too far away either at the rate they are progressing. But I'm also wide open for any other new abrasive technology that might come along too.

In my opinion, a quantum leap in abrasive technology is unlikely to occur anytime soon. What would be a REAL step in a significant direction would be the ability to reliably SHAPE and orient the individual abrasive particles. Getting that dialed in would make a HUGE difference in cutting efficiency. Imagine setting the bevel on a knife with a bench stone as fast as using a belt sander.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

In my opinion, a quantum leap in abrasive technology is unlikely to occur anytime soon. What would be a REAL step in a significant direction would be the ability to reliably SHAPE and orient the individual abrasive particles. Getting that dialed in would make a HUGE difference in cutting efficiency. Imagine setting the bevel on a knife with a bench stone as fast as using a belt sander.

There's been some progress on that in the realm of grinding belts, but not in bonded abrasives, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Wowbagger]

There's been some progress on that in the realm of grinding belts, but not in bonded abrasives, to the best of my knowledge.

pardon me while I do the dog look
What is stopping one from cutting the belt and glue tacking it to the bench ?
If the belt is so ooober over a stone . . . well then . . .
?
. . . and . . . the last bevel I "set" was totally reprofilng an S110V blade and even though it was done on a decade old DMT 220 (ten inch long bench stone). It went really fast. I have no complaints. Baddaboom baddabing and all like that.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

pardon me while I do the dog look
What is stopping one from cutting the belt and glue tacking it to the bench ?
If the belt is so ooober over a stone . . . well then . . .
?
. . . and . . . the last bevel I "set" was totally reprofilng an S110V blade and even though it was done on a decade old DMT 220 (ten inch long bench stone). It went really fast. I have no complaints. Baddaboom baddabing and all like that.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Aligning a single layer of grit is altogether less difficult than aligning an entire brick of material.

 

[eKretz]

Bingo. Exactly what I was talking about. I was unaware that anyone had made this much progress yet. Very nice. Thanks for the link!

 

[D-weaver]

we have this discussion in woodworking a lot. oilstones are wonderful with steel that's mostly iron carbides and a certain hardness range. Not so great elsewhere.

They are my favorite, but would be intolerable with anything with tons of vanadium or chromium or pretty much anything in terms of large carbide (they just get graded). I think most of those things are far better sharpened with a trizact belt and a loaded buff, anyway. It's quick and there isn't any fighting or tearout of carbides like I've seen on stuff like SGPS or even 154cm. but carbon steel 59-63 hardness or so and a set of oilstones is a wonderful thing. They're also great for keeping straight razors in shape because they're gentle on the extremely acute edges.

vintage washita stones are also a nice do-all to keep a carbon steel blade in good shape.

 

[D-weaver]

(sorry if this looks like a necropost - I just joined after finding this forum through google - I started making knife blades for fun last week and was looking around and the forum software served me this thread - I see that it's a bit old and wouldn't have posted if the software hadn't recommended it to me).

I'm an amateur toolmaker and can only say thus far, knife making is WAY different than making planes/plane blades and chisels!!!