Arrogance mistaken for competence

M

Marc Animal MacYoung

Joined
Mar 30, 2000
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71
There is an old WW II Willy and Joe cartoon where the two scruffy, combat vets are sitting against the wall. A young buck, all spit and polish, swaggers by with a bad look on his face and his helmet tilted forward. Willy comments, "You can tell he hasn't been in combat, he wants to fight."

This kind of sums up my feelings about much of what is taught as knife fighting. Having actually faced blades in the hands of people committed to punching my ticket, arrogance about what I can do to them takes a serious back seat to the danger of what they can do to me. Like I have said before: It is a whole different game when the other side shoots back. A game that is way less fun, totally unpredictable and scary.

There is no simple answer or "you just do this" on this subject. It is complex, hairy and fraught with danger -- even for so-called experts. What I find so amazing is that those of us who have "seen the elephant" are like Willy and Joe. It's not a place we willingly want to go back to, much less actively seek out. Furthermore, we make no bones about our fear, caution and limited knowledge on the subject.

We know that there are no simple solutions to this complex problem. And the fact is that if you aren't confused, you don't understand the problem.

This does, however, beg a very real serious question: What is it in the American mindset that mistakes overwhelming arrogance for competence and knowledge? It is almost as if the public wants to throw its money at the guy who offers the simplest, most outrageous advertising campaign. ("Fear no man?" Are you nuts? You had better be afraid of the danger the guy poses).

It seems that anyone who says, "Nope, sorry, no simple answers" will be bypassed by a majority of students stampeding toward the guy who provides simplistic - to the point of being dangerous - psuedo answers.

And yet these students seem to eat it up. It is almost as if some of these instuctors are encouraging students to be as blindly cocky about their untested skills as the teachers themselves.

"You can tell he ain't never been in combat, he *wants* to fight."

Marc http://www.diac.com/~dgordon
 
This is probably a hypothetical question but I think it's arrogance mistaken for CONFIDENCE as well. Obviously there is the whole advertising angle too.

After all, who wants to live life afraid? Who wants to think they're always wrong and incompetent with no answers?
 
Advertising is designed to do one thing: SELL.

------------------
Usual Suspect
http://www.freeyellow.com/members8/arkhamdrifter/index.html
 
Great topic!
The subject of confusion is vital when it comes to the blade. One of the things that Tuhon Sayoc keeps addressing is that the knife is a complex subject and no easy answers can be given. I've seen many times when students or seminar folks want ONE answer and there is no ONE answer to something. However, we also have to make sure broad statements shouldn't be taken as absolutes. I've read your assessment of SOME FMA's but for others to consider this an absolute about all FMA's is short changing many many people who definitely know how to handle themselves in a knife attack and have already done so in their lives- many times before.I know from your posts in the eskrima digest and also having read some of your writings that you're trying to get people to view the world in a realistic manner, and that you've given props to FMA's before. I definitely agree that many things being taught as FMA techniques of survival may get one killed. There's a whole portion of Tuhon Sayoc's seminars that point this out... many times he gets other FMAs instructors to show right there in front of everyone how a 'sure fire' technique can get one killed. I just wanted to point out that some portions of your post may be taken incorrectly as disrepectful when what you're saying has well meaning intentions.

I think that 'Fear No Man' stuff is an ad gimmick, it gets people to talk about that person's program - it works on that level. Although, it isn't a man one has to fear, but the scenario and result of actions of men. I would fear a child with a loaded gun, not the child. To respect fear and attempt to understand it's effects on our personal beings is one of the greatest lessons we can learn for survival.
Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
 
An understandable lament. The way I look at it, you can be a martial artist, or you can be in the business of selling martial arts. There are very few people who really want to learn personal combat. I think it will always be hard to earn a living teaching true martial skill. I am always on the lookout to find more students for my Inayan Eskrima school, but it is hard to find people who enjoy beating each other with sticks for fun.

Giving Mortal Combat lessons to yuppie school kids is gonna have a bigger market.
 
Chief, welcome to these forums.

I think your words sum up general human behaviour. It's only natural to want the easy or simple answers, to have something to believe in that gives you a sense of comfort.

As an atheist, I would say that this is the case for many people of a religious persuasion. However, note that I don't want to change this thread into a discussion on religion.

IMHO, human beings are capable of great self deception and logically/emotionally weak behaviour. Yet at the next moment you see somebody doing something fantastically heroic, and giving up his life to do it.

Just like in Martial Arts, the behaviour of human beings is complex, unpredictable and with no easy answers. And as individuals, I don't think we can do very much to change it.

Let's just do as much as we can and the rest, just let it be.

Best wishes from SYK
 
Originally posted by Sun Helmet:
Great topic!I've read your assessment of SOME FMA's but for others to consider this an absolute about all FMA's is short changing many many people who definitely know how to handle themselves in a knife attack and have already done so in their lives- many times before.

You know that hits exactly in the middle of what I was talking about. Here is one example of the big difference between the "Been There Done That" attitude of people who have faced a blade using FMA and the "I'm a knife fighter because I'm trained in FMA." Footwork.

If you look at the old time players and people who have used this to survive against a blade, you see an extreme emphasis on footwork and moving out of the way (Gee, the other guy has something in his hand that can kill you and he is in the process of trying to do so, moving kinda makes sense).

Among these old vetrens you will also see a form of arrogance, however the humility is generally bigger. They know how chancey and unpredictale it is when the devil's dice are flying -- no matter how good you are. You don't see them bragging that they are knife fighters.

Anyway, back to footwork, how many westernerns have taken the FMA -- and while they may talk about footwork -- they overemphasized trapping,locking and defanging the buck toothed gopher snake. Much cooler and more macho than any sissy dodging.

Look at the difference of emphasis between the old time FMAer, who has done this stuff and his second, third or fourth generation student is teaching. I'm not talking about lip service to a concept either. I'm talking about grinding into a student's unconscious responses before moving on.

If you want to see whatI'm talkning about, try sitting down and watching an instructional video (or a tournament) and seeing how much getting off line they actually do. They may talk about it, but when push comes to shove, they don't walk their talk.

I got news for some folks here, if the dude is coming at you with a knife, there is at least a 50-50 chance that your block will miss. What happens then? Yet, watch an old maestro and see how he automatically moves away from the point of threat, especially if he has faced the real thing. By combining a block and moving off line he ups his chances of not getting carved up to 80% on that attack, even if his block isn't exactly perfect. If he block is done right, you're in the 90s. But there still ain't no guarantee, so don't get cocky.

However, so many second or third generation knife fighting studs -- who have never been in a knife altercation -- puff up their chests and just stand there. Why should they dodge, they are bad-assed knife fighters. Gosh, golly gee...that may work in the school, but you ain't going to like what happens in the alley.

I'm not bashing the FMA, but I have serious problems with the current Westernized Macho interpretation of it, especially when certain suicidal tendencies are being blindly passed on. Flaws that won't become apparent in the school, but like an incorrectly packed parachute become problematic well past the point of no return.

Then again, maybe that is why the problems haven't been recognized. Unlike the old Gurus, these guys aren't surviving the real thing to come back and say "hey, this is what I learned and this is why this is more important than that" But by gawd, these here tough knife fighters can teach you how to defeat any man.
Click to expand...
 
<<Anyway, back to footwork, how many westernerns have taken the FMA -- and while they may talk about footwork -- they overemphasized trapping,locking and defanging the buck toothed gopher snake. Much cooler and more macho than any sissy dodging.>>

Right on the money there. I'm sure some on this forum just returned from Tuhon's seminar and they can probably state that he spent some time just showing how difficult it is to evade something harmless that they know is coming even from beyond kicking range .. now trying to evade something dangerous that is unpredictable in a real life encounter is heightened so many times. This was one thing I was addressing in the other folder when a question about the templates arose. The templates on the Sayoc Kali site are just that... templates- not the whole thing. If they look at the level one curriculum they will see a whole section on footwork and other drills addressing evasion.

Btw, I want to add that the gunting is an accident of movement and should never be taught as a prime answer to any line of attack... take the vitals first... the arm is gravy on the way to the target. Looking for the weapon arm is too late... one never sees it coming if they look for it.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
 
So very well put Mr.Macyoung..Nothing goes like it goes in the Dojo..Live,learn and if the $hit ever comes to you Will and Pray that you and yours will not fall..
 
Marc, my only comment here is less about martial arts and more about sociology. I suspect that what you're talking about is not limited to Americans, or even the West. I think it is more a matter of a society that is not currently in a state of internal warfare.

Once the immediate feedback of "do it right or die" is mostly gone, the general human need to feel in control of one's environment takes over. Thats where the desire for one simple answer takes over. Ironically, that seems to lead us into a place where we are even less in contol than if we acknoledged the scary reality. But then, the point is to feel in control. In fact, I would go as far as to say that this isn't limited to knife fighting, or even martial arts in general. Just listen to a commercial, or a political speech (am I being redundant?) What sells is a nice simple answer, the accuracy or effectiveness of which is often besides the point.

I'm not particlularly well travelled, but I get the distinct impression that this sort of thing is a very human trait and not limited to any particular society.
 
Hello All,

Mr MacYoung, you really tell it like it is.

Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness.

Regards and keep well.
 
I am going to do the fun thing and blame it all on the Japanese (karate) and Koreans (TKD).
wink.gif


I notice it seems very popular to be able to advertise that your kinder-karate school offers training in FMA. Perhaps the third degree black belt went to a FMA seminar, and got an instructor's certificate in a weekend. But he still has not absorbed bladed weapons, is not a knife exponent, doesn't carry a knife, etc.

In true FMA schools, whose founders were perhaps in death matches, or in the war during the Japanese occupation of the PI, I don't think it is an issue. It was only one generation ago when the bolo brigades were fighting the Japanese in the jungles, and most of the traditional schools have masters who learned from those guys. To underscore the heritage of our system, I am fond of quoting Suro Inay: "The blood is still on the bolo," refering to a blade that belonged to Grandmaster Angel Cabales, a momento of one of his challenges.

Also, we do a lot of our drilling in a more or less stationary position. Why, when street knife fights are so dynamic? Becuase sometimes you can't move. There is a wall behind you, or you are cornered, in a bathroom stall, etc. We train for the worst scenario, the time when you can't do much to evade.

I do believe Mr. MacYoung's sentiments are an important wakeup call to those who may think of a bladed assault the same was as an empty-hand assault though. It is not at all like boxing, not like the UFC. You don't get a mashed lip, broken teeth, broken nose. You take a hit with a knife, you die. You should think of a knife more like somebody pointing a loaded gun at you.



[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 07-31-2000).]
 
I have a term we came up with that kind of ties in with the mistaking arrogance for competence thread...

Gramass-itis

It stands for Grand Master Senior Student-itis. I am amazed at the number of senior students who study the "ultimate" style under Grandmaster John Doe who assume that the "Name's" proficiency automatically rubs off on them.

Can anyone explain to me how it is ensured that the student will stand head and shoulders above the rest of us poor mortals who are struggling to understand because they study an art taught by a supposed "master?" Or founded by a master?

I found it odd that I once walked into a Wing Chun school in Arizona where a guy proudly listed his lineage that after five generations got back to my old teacher Hawkins Cheung. But boy was he proud of his lineage and expected me to be impressed.

However, I have to remember the words of Guru Steve Plink (who is in all probablility the most dangerous hand to hand fighter I have ever met). "If I didn't have the skill, my lineage would be meaningless."

Apparently that little detail seems to slide by a few people.

I am amazed at the number of senior students of Grandmaster John Doe, who think because they study a style created by a "name" or
 
Probably most people forget what I call Rule#1: STEEL cuts Flesh; all the time
and of course they have ultimate reaction time(as if it even matters when "IT HAPPENS"
Bodda-bing- over, done with..)
And of course by studying the art of "so and so" the skill and experience has actually been absorbed by osmosis by the practitioner of "so and so"...
hmmm I wish I could learn something by osmosis.
Plus Animal..if they listen to you, you blow off too many established egos!
LOL..
Welcome to the forums!
 
Hmm, arrogance for competence. I have seen a bit of that, the "What I teach is the best and all others are inferior" But there are also some wonderfully humble instructors out there, I have had the honor of meeting them as well.

 
Arrogance; good thoughts.Sometimes you have to fake it to make it.You don`t really have much of a chance, but you are going to try.Self confidence is a good thing here.
Marc is making good sense.
What if you get caught between a rock and a hard place.
You don`t have the training that you would like to have.
You better just go with what you know,because you are not getting any help.
You are going to use the means at hand.
A healthy dose of arrogance is not out of line here.
You have to convince people to follow you.
You don`t tell them that you are in the dark here.
What was the question again?
I`m kidding,I`m better than that.
None the less,often the only thing you have is guts.
Intel is bad.Readiness is bad.
We`ll do the ambush,or the snatch.
We`re Paras,Rangers,SF,or whatever.
Arrogance is all that we have.
This actually works most of the time.
 
I used to work with a guy who ran a dojo on the California central coast. He has a photograph of himself receiving a bone crunching kick to the head, buy a huge dude named "Nasty Anderson".
"That's my lineage!" he proclaims to curious people.
 
I hear you Bill. I am the best pilot in the world.Stick and rudder are natural to me. Just ask Chuck Yeager or Bud Robinson. Ask my Dad. He trained me. The Army and Navy trained me as well.Thanks guys. Thanks for not reporting one of my L-19 landings.
Thanks to the 19 yr. old boys that flew the UH 1-B in combat.And thanks again for not ratting me out. I wasn`t that great with that aircraft or the LOCH.What the heck, I`m trying.I am a fair hand with the Bird dog now.
We kind of have to believe that to be who we are.
Just what we are is another question.

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 08-04-2000).]
 
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