Art of Grinding

[erik markman]

I am a freehand guy. I tried to make a jig when I started but they are useless for my style of knife.
Practice does make near perfect.
Thinking before and after doing also helps.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I am a freehand guy. I tried to make a jig when I started but they are useless for my style of knife.
Practice does make near perfect.
Thinking before and after doing also helps.

I agree with you. Studying others work and your own work help inform your grinding. Having a plan for your blade geometry is also immensely important.
If you don't know where your grind needs to go you can't reasonably expect to get there.

 

[Natlek]

I find it easy to grind from left to right , but I have problem to grind other side.......from right to left . Is there any trick for this?

 

[Pittknife]

I find it easy to grind from left to right , but I have problem to grind other side.......from right to left . Is there any trick for this?

Again, is just practice. Usually it's your angle your start with and pressure that messes you up on your weak hand. Practice 2-1 with your weak hand and when you start your grinds do your weak hand first. You have more control to match with your strong hand.

 

[erik markman]

Do right to left first. Copy that with the left to right.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I find it easy to grind from left to right , but I have problem to grind other side.......from right to left . Is there any trick for this?

Yes, an this has never been noted before: Practice.

When I first started I had several imbalances. I ground better with the knife primarily held in my left hand, right hand controlling.
I also tended to grind unevenly, not paying attention to keeping my grind equal on each side of the blade. It was through simple awareness of these things that my grinding began to balance out.
Also, there are many ways to hold a knife blade while grinding, and each has it's place. Each also must become muscle memory. I am hardly aware when my hold on the knife changes to address a certain aspect of grinding geometry now.

 

[kuraki]

I won't quibble with the general direction of those remarks... freehand grinding is very difficult, at least the more advanced stuff, and indeed many people will find it perhaps too difficult in the end to be worth the bother. I do like to believe though that "talent" is an overrated concept, and that focus and a good patient teacher can make up for a lot of the perceived lack of it.

Then again, I am "talented" at a number of things, and am sometimes guilty of taking it for granted that picking them up has been relatively easy. That's why I like trying new things, or trying old things in new ways, to remind myself that in many respects I am just as lacking in "talent" as anyone else.

Wayne Goddard liked to say that he really didn't believe in "talent" in knifemaking. Then, there are geniuses I could point to, but I believe that sort would be incredible at almost anything to capture their attention...

In closing, I would also like to say that there are some grinds that just need freehanding skill to be able to execute.

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a quibble. As a manager of skilled tradesmen I find the conversation interesting, because while most people here are looking at it from their personal perspective, I'm looking at it like, how can I apply this to training various skills as well as for my own personal growth.

Let me just say I don't believe in the concept of "natural" talent like something one was born with. When I say talent, I mean learned abilities that manifest themselves as talent in adults that were actually developed skills during ones formative years. How a person learned how to learn, for example. My point about being able to look at a picture of something and duplicate it for instance, is related to being very visually oriented, where another would struggle with duplicating something they saw, might instantly grasp someone else walking them through the motions, which I myself find very tough to do.

Like I said initially, I believe most any skill can be learned by most any person, but due to the nature of the skill in question, will seem like an impossible task to some, and relatively easy to others, in a large part due to how they learned to learn, and how that relates to how a skill can be demonstrated to them.

And then it becomes a simple question of time invested vs results obtained and whether aids exist to improve the results or reduce the time.

Ultimately, free hand grinding offers, without question, the most flexibility in capability, like the types of grinds you mention the same way drawing free hand does versus tracing something.

 

[PNWJimbo]

Thanks again for all of the follow up comments and suggestions. Looks like I have some reading up to do about different kinds of jigs. There is another knife maker here in my greater seattle area named Lyle of Bronk's knife works who offered to give me a couple of lessons on the grinder. I assumed that meant freehand. I really would like to get into making precise, consistent blades quickly though, so I will be looking into that bubble jig.

Cheers

EDIT: Also, great work on your grinder OP, love the golfball

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I won't quibble with the general direction of those remarks... freehand grinding is very difficult, at least the more advanced stuff, and indeed many people will find it perhaps too difficult in the end to be worth the bother. I do like to believe though that "talent" is an overrated concept, and that focus and a good patient teacher can make up for a lot of the perceived lack of it.

Then again, I am "talented" at a number of things, and am sometimes guilty of taking it for granted that picking them up has been relatively easy. That's why I like trying new things, or trying old things in new ways, to remind myself that in many respects I am just as lacking in "talent" as anyone else.

Wayne Goddard liked to say that he really didn't believe in "talent" in knifemaking. Then, there are geniuses I could point to, but I believe that sort would be incredible at almost anything to capture their attention...

In closing, I would also like to say that there are some grinds that just need freehanding skill to be able to execute.

I agree that there aren't any Born grinders, I watched Bob Engnath free hand grind when I was a few month noob and it was very impressive to see the speed & ability he had developed!
He also told me that had a large pile of Oh Fuc,,, blades in a bucket just like everyone else!

What makes us good, great or fantastic at anything is determination, focus, & Practice, Practice, Practice! Some of us give up or settle for less while other's say hell no! I'm going to conquer this, Grind, Job, Lady, Business!

 

[Salem Straub]

Kuraki, that's totally it. How a person learns to learn early on is huge! Having a little boy now, I think of it a lot, how to give him an advantage that way....
For those who have trouble with dominant hand issues, I would suggest working on the basics of a solid stance and grinding by shifting weight, with the arms locked in. That way it matters less what hand is holding or supporting the work.

 

[john april]

in my experience the bubble jig was invaluable in that it trained me not to need it. but the normal jigs i had before i would always have to rely on. after doing about 15 knives with the bubble jig i could "feel" if i was doing the right thing or not, and looking at the bubble, keeping it level and watching the blade on the platen became annoying. so i started doing the first half (from edge to spine) with the bubble jig, and doing the second half by hand. 4 knives later i just went freehand. keep in mind my grinds are just ordinary single and double grinds, nothing fancy.

 

[REK Knives]

I've done a lot of grinding over the years and have come to the same conclusion... Jigs can be good in certain applications, but don't offer the freedom freehand does. I currently do hollow, flat, and convex grinding on a regular basis. Probably the most difficult grind to date that I still cannot do comfortably is the nightmare grind (hollow on both the rear and forward portions with a higher rear grind). Jigs won't work for this grind from what I've found. I would like to believe that one day I can nail it freehand but time will tell.

 

[kuraki]

I tried my pseudo jig method on a new grind last night. Flat ground tanto with a hollow ground tip. What a disaster 😂. The flats came out good and straight, nailed the hollow on one side but just could not get it on the other. So switched from wheel to platen and back about 12 before I gave up and ground the hollow flat. Uff da.

 

[Pittknife]

I've done a lot of grinding over the years and have come to the same conclusion... Jigs can be good in certain applications, but don't offer the freedom freehand does. I currently do hollow, flat, and convex grinding on a regular basis. Probably the most difficult grind to date that I still cannot do comfortably is the nightmare grind (hollow on both the rear and forward portions with a higher rear grind). Jigs won't work for this grind from what I've found. I would like to believe that one day I can nail it freehand but time will tell.

That nightmare grind is done on a jig usually. You just change heights on the table, then change angle for the front.
That grind is one that in my opinion can be done much easier free hand. Just hold it at the start and pressure down. The front is a flat grind usually and just blend it back.

 

[adam britz]

Thanks everyone for the insight and good convo

 

[Kevin McGovern]

To me, freehand grinding is similar to shooting a recurve bow without sites, or swinging a golf club. The mechanics can be learned if you have a good teacher. So then you know what you are supposed to do. Actually executing is another thing entirely. It requires patience and practice. You won't execute it correctly the first or second time regardless of your natural ability (is that even a thing?) or the instruction you receive. You just need to make small adjustments, until you "get in the groove". You'll know when you are in the groove, but I can't really describe it. The result of being in the groove, for me anyway, is my grind line will be lazer straight, and I can totally control the removal of steel across the entire blade, consistently. So much of what freehand grinding entails is about feel, it can be difficult to teach. However, when you get it, and you know what it SHOULD feel like, you will also know what it SHOULDN'T feel like. Then you're on your way. This is all just me trying to describe how I perceive it of course.

 

[REK Knives]

That nightmare grind is done on a jig usually. You just change heights on the table, then change angle for the front.
That grind is one that in my opinion can be done much easier free hand. Just hold it at the start and pressure down. The front is a flat grind usually and just blend it back.

In theory yes you are correct (that a jig can work very well for a nmg), and it will work to an extent. But if you want a nice arc in between the two plunges then you will have to do it free hand or sacrifice edge geometry. For an example: here is a reblade for my RHK I was messing with and did on a jig. Notice that it's a straight line from plunge to plunge.

The problem is that the edge thickness will vary if you want a nice arc like on this one (note: not my pic, just pulled it off of google). Notice that the heel and near the forward plunge gets thicker/wider

The reason for this is that the angle must change near each plunge to get a little steeper (e.g. if you are grinding the main hollow at say 3 dps, then it will need to increase to 5 dps near each plunge to keep the edge geometry even). If you have a fixed angled jig (which every one out there is that I know of) then to get the arc your grind will naturally get thinner in the middle.

That all being said is just to demonstrate my point that jigs are limiting but don't require as much skill, free hand is total control/power but requires a lot of learning and skill. Jigs are great in certain situations though, very nice indeed!

 

[Brock Cutlery]

To me, freehand grinding is similar to shooting a recurve bow without sites, or swinging a golf club. The mechanics can be learned if you have a good teacher. So then you know what you are supposed to do. Actually executing is another thing entirely. It requires patience and practice. You won't execute it correctly the first or second time regardless of your natural ability (is that even a thing?) or the instruction you receive. You just need to make small adjustments, until you "get in the groove". You'll know when you are in the groove, but I can't really describe it. The result of being in the groove, for me anyway, is my grind line will be lazer straight, and I can totally control the removal of steel across the entire blade, consistently. So much of what freehand grinding entails is about feel, it can be difficult to teach. However, when you get it, and you know what it SHOULD feel like, you will also know what it SHOULDN'T feel like. Then you're on your way. This is all just me trying to describe how I perceive it of course.

This sounds about right Kevin. I think there is such a thing as talent. My dad played guitar really well and could sing. Although I tried for many many years and got fairly good at it, I never had the feel for it. It didn't seem natural to me and I just mimicked what I heard. Grinding however feels very natural to me now. And as you can say, I can feel when it is right and when it isn't.

 

[kuraki]

That whole "feeling when right and when it isn't" is something that always gets me with any hand/eye coordination task. Whether I'm shooting trap, or 3gun, or skiing, or playing tennis, casting a fishing line, shooting a bow, grinding...

Often I can feel when something isn't just right. The hardest part is identifying what it is and correcting it or working through it. That's muscle memory, or subconscious execution to put it more accurately. That's where repetitions pay off. You might grind one blade perfect, exactly how you visualized it, and then the next one goes wonky. So you have to correct some mistakes. Were you paying enough attention to realize you made the mistakes before you caught them in visual inspection? Can you think back through the movement you made that caused the mistake and prevent it the next time?

The "talent" as I see it is that some people are very capable of doing the above without a lot of active thought. They're kinesthetic learners. To others it comes less naturally and takes more active concentration, but it isn't impossible.

The real frustration for me comes from the variables that affect the grind outside of my own movements. Was the stock flat and parallel before I started? Is it still flat and parallel? If the belt was new and cutting freely a minute ago, is it still cutting as freely now? Is the belt tension even across both left and right edges or is it tighter on one than the other? Am I compensating for one of these things with my movements to get an acceptable grind?

Everyone who wants to improve their abilities to do these kinds of things should shoot trap sometime. Unlike a rifle or handgun, you're not trying to line up the sights and press the trigger at the moment they're on your target (think of this like executing a milled cut. Line up the readouts and cut.) but you shoulder the gun and line up your beads and say pull, and when the bird comes into your vision you focus both eyes on the bird and the gun follows your line of vision, you slap the trigger when you anticipate you're in the correct position and follow through.

It's so much like grinding it's not even funny. There's no time to line up your sights and press, because the target is getting further and further away distally and radially, just like there's no time to line things up freehand on the grinder, when you're on the belt you're cutting, no matter how light the pressure.

Good repetitions make good subconscious executions possible. Trial and error identifies variables for elimination. Elimination of variables make for good repetitions. The circle of grinding

 

[Brock Cutlery]

I can't disagree with you at all. My grinds were certainly terrible out of the gate. Muscle memory is key, as is learning from your mistakes. Some folks are geared to constantly refine their process, others hit a point and call it good enough.
Probably the art or talent comes together in the full knife, not just the grind.
I will say this: I can play stairway to heaven passably (jeers and scoffs), but Jimmy Page did it right.
I think there is an element of grinding that is like that.