Article: Arrested for carrying a pockeknife in NYC

guyver said:
Wow Rat, you are really one tough guy! I read through some of your posts and just as I thought, a condescending POS. Real keyboard warrior you are. You never answered whether you know anything about knife fighting, figured the answer was no. But you are the authority of those images from what you say. Silly... looking at you post times..all day posting, and the trash you talk, and I only looked at a few, not the lot, tells me what I need to know about you. Yes 12,000 posts in 2 years, many mocking others, makes you a looser, probably unemployed, maybe marginally employed, maybe living with mom.
Either way it equals wanker. The type of guy that would type things about someone but sh#t himself if he had to say it face to face. Your the guy thats gives folks the finger from in his car, but once dragged out the window has already pissed himself. Have dealt with your kind. Straight up, your a wanker.

You'll prob type some smart ass stuff afterwards, but you'll be preaching to your fan club.

Ever in Jersey look me up, send a PM, an email, would like to meet you, really, and find out what your really like without that keyboard.

Sorry to distract all, done with this douchbag.
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Grammar obviously isn't your strong suit . . . if you are going to call names and spaz out online, you should probably seek some edjumakashun. :D

Should I be amused or disturbed by the way you have incorporated fantasies about me and my life into your colorful little imaginary world?

So far. . . amused. . . :D

Give me your email- I will pass on all my spam urban legend/hoax chain letters so that you can weave more fiction into the fabric of your life.:thumbup:
 
Gentlemen, please back off from the interpersonal bickering, which only distracts from the original topic.
 
charlesbjr said:
Ok, I need to get back on topic for one minute because this stuff has me running scared!

If I am on my way up-state NY (I live in NYC) to hunt, have my hunting license on me as well as all of my hunting gear (i.e. camo clothes, rifle with permit, etc.) and get stopped, can I be arrested for carrying my hunting knives? I am under the impression that as long as I am hunting and have my license to prove it, I am ok.

Ughhhhhh!
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I'm not an expert. If you want to know for sure write the local DA's office. Here is something you might find interesting.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of such knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

 
Thanks Grey:

I also read that but after hearing some of the stories, was a bit worried that there may have been some changes. My cousin, who retired within the last year (as a NYC LEO) told me that they would not care if someone was transporting their knive(s) to or from a hunting trip.

Thanks.
 
nodh said:
We dont have that problem in the "old part of the world".
What is it about you people and all these pocket clips on every edge tool there is.
If she had just had it in her pocket like a normal Swiss Army knife noone would have bothered her in the first place. Why show to everyone and his cousin "Hey, I have a knife"

The second thing that confuses me is that everyone is so fanatical into this "self defense" crap. A knife is a TOOL to cut different kinds of materials with. Why do you need a knife for self defence? because the other guy has a knife and he might be a bad guy? I need a bigger weapon because the other guy has a weapon.

Compare a Victorinox folder with different gizmoes on and a CQC7 with Wave. One is mainly for solving problems during a picnic and the other one is for cutting people.
There is no normal need whatsoever for a knife that opens up in no time at all.
There might be some special uses but there are not that many cayaking people, paragliders, climbers etc. out there to justify the need for so many types of swish swosh knives.

There is no use for a knife for self defense. 1: the bad guy always has the initiative. 2: you need lots of training to "survive" a knife fight 3: knife fights are not minute long like those with Steven Seagal, a real one is over in seconds and usually the bad guy wins.

Well, I too would like to have a CQC7 with wave just because it might be cool, but it might end up in the collection because a SAK or similar knife is more likely to pass any eventual security check. Even a Gestapo trained, Al-Qaida indoctrinated NY cop that had not gotten his coffee yet. Hey, it is the new intel from DHS "We can not find any Al Qaida, we have looked for people with bandaged heads but there are none so they must be in disguise, maybe they look like young kids with pocket knives".

Just because you have the RIGHT to bear arms, doesnt mean that it is RIGHT all the time.
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Sheesh! Another example of why we can never allow this country to be governed by "international law" and the U.N., like Hillary and the rest of the socialist want.
 
PV29 said:
Sheesh! Another example of why we can never allow this country to be governed by "international law" and the U.N., like Hillary and the rest of the socialist want.
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She's an amateur compared to Rudy when it comes to banning arms.
 
boy,what happened to the good old days? i carried a buck 110 in a sheath on my belt to school every day from 9th to 12th grade,1976-1980,on long island,it was like it didnt exist.i was never was approached by a teacher,never reported,questioned,nothing.try that today.good luck....
 
Sort of reminds me of the guy needing to relieve himself behind a tree,.......if "it" gets seen,.......you're under arrest!

.....and if it's over 4 inches,.........now you're really screwed! ;)

mkhop said:
I have been in a few situations where the quick presence of my knife has saved my bacon . I understand that it is the knife in the open that violates the law in NYC and not so much the knife. I am not fond of citys but have to say that NYC is a marvel.
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Rat Finkenstein said:
a knife is a tool. It can be used as a weapon, but so can a pipe wrench.
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Yep,

A tool is (By definition of our lovely wikipedia)
"A tool or device is a piece of equipment which typically provides a mechanical advantage in accomplishing a physical task, or provides an ability that is not naturally available to the user of a tool. "

Hmm, i cant cut this piece of wood

Hmm, i am smaller, and need to be able to be 'bigger' in the sense of ability to damage

same concept, to give yourself literally "the Upper hand" On whatever you are doing.

Grey Mullet said:
I'm not an expert. If you want to know for sure write the local DA's office. Here is something you might find interesting.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of such knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.
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I read this lovely thing over, and according to how it was written, what you quoted are exceptionary reasons to the use of knives and such sort of weapons. Which basically are

1. In military or police

2. Doing something requiring it, and having proper licenses, (camping, fishing, hunting carpentry etc.)

3. in boy scouts and under the correct supervision of the knifes use etc.
 
http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/ny.txt

NYC law (Penal code 10-133) states that any knife with a blade over 4 inches is illegal to carry. If you carry a knife with a blade under 4 inches, it is legal. But NYC LEOs tend to misconstrue most folding knives as a "gravity knife" because many models can be flicked open and that feature fits under NY state Penal code 265's definition of a "gravity knife". Also, you cannot carry in a manner that displays the knife to the public that could cause a public disturbance. Under NYC Penal code 10-134, ANY knife that folds and locks in the open position is considered a "dangerous knife". So, technically, if you carry a small, single edged fixed blade with a blade under 4 inches concealed, you cannot be prosecuted. This has the advantage of being quicker to access than a folder and technically legal.

There was an actual case of a female on the train who was arrested for having a small kitchen knife in her waistband. The judge dismissed the charges because the prosecutor tried to charge her with the all encompassing "dangerous knife" clause of the penal code but the judge noted the law's description of a "dangerous knife" was vague (the law is still on the books though).

Also another NY case involved a male who was arrested for having a balisong knife but, lucky for him, his father was a big shot CEO whose legal team fought the charges and won. The prosecutor tried to prove that a balisong was a "gravity knife" because to operate it, one needed to use the application of centrifugal force. The defense countered that the technical definition under NY State Penal code 265 was that a "gravity knife" opens with gravity or centrifugal force but that it also had to lock automatically once in the open position. Because the balisong needed the user to manually operate the lock latch, the judge dismissed the charges. So technically, balisongs with single edges under 4 inches are legal.

Here are the citations for the actual NYC cases I described:

http://www.thehighroad.org/library/blades/ny/In%20re%20P.%20-%20112%20Misc.%202d%20326%20(1982).html

http://www.thehighroad.org/library/blades/ny/People%20v.%20Zuniga%20-%20303%20A.D.2d%20773%20(2003).html

You must note, however, that most NYPD will not stand there and let you lecture them about how much you know about NY's penal codes. Best advice, if you carry, carry within the legally defined terms and carry concealed or do not carry it at all. Choose a knife that doesn't say "Super Ninja Rambo Gut Slasher 2000"; one in which the advertising for the knife clearly states its function as a utility tool. If you have to use your knife, God forbid, shut up (it's your Constitutional right!) and get a good lawyer and force that lawyer to use the penal code's definitions of what a legal knife is so you will not be charged with using an illegal knife. Then, only your actions will be under scrutiny and not your tool. Or, look at other alternatives for self defense that don't scare the sheep. :)
 
nodh said:
We dont have that problem in the "old part of the world".
What is it about you people and all these pocket clips on every edge tool there is.
If she had just had it in her pocket like a normal Swiss Army knife noone would have bothered her in the first place. Why show to everyone and his cousin "Hey, I have a knife"

The second thing that confuses me is that everyone is so fanatical into this "self defense" crap. A knife is a TOOL to cut different kinds of materials with. Why do you need a knife for self defence? because the other guy has a knife and he might be a bad guy? I need a bigger weapon because the other guy has a weapon.

Compare a Victorinox folder with different gizmoes on and a CQC7 with Wave. One is mainly for solving problems during a picnic and the other one is for cutting people.
There is no normal need whatsoever for a knife that opens up in no time at all.
There might be some special uses but there are not that many cayaking people, paragliders, climbers etc. out there to justify the need for so many types of swish swosh knives.

There is no use for a knife for self defense. 1: the bad guy always has the initiative. 2: you need lots of training to "survive" a knife fight 3: knife fights are not minute long like those with Steven Seagal, a real one is over in seconds and usually the bad guy wins.

Well, I too would like to have a CQC7 with wave just because it might be cool, but it might end up in the collection because a SAK or similar knife is more likely to pass any eventual security check. Even a Gestapo trained, Al-Qaida indoctrinated NY cop that had not gotten his coffee yet. Hey, it is the new intel from DHS "We can not find any Al Qaida, we have looked for people with bandaged heads but there are none so they must be in disguise, maybe they look like young kids with pocket knives".

Just because you have the RIGHT to bear arms, doesnt mean that it is RIGHT all the time.
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I like the clip because it keeps lint out of my knife. I'm not fending off pirates and ninjas, but I have fended off(fended, NOT stabbed) a dog that was trying to bite me, so no, knives(even tactical ones) are not just for cutting people.
Swiss army knives are good, but not as good for certain cutting tasks as single dedicated blade.
Knives are TOOLS first and foremost. Anthropologists now tell us that the first "knives" were sharp stone pieces used to scavenge flesh off of carcasses.
So, tools first, weapons second if at all. Been that way since the beginning.:thumbup:
 
ClgluckUSMC, Good post, not sure of your background, but you are right on most facts. The NYC Admin Code is not Penal law, and a dangerous knife is not defined as a locking knife over 4". The NYC Admin Code prohibits the sale of 4" and over locking knives in the city because they are "dangerous" but that does not influnence the NYS Penal Law's lack of a definition. I would not so quickly recommend a small fixed blade as a aloowable carry as you missed the laws forbiddening dagger and dirk and stiletto, which are all undefined terms and dirk has held up in court as a small fixed balde knife. The best NYC carry knife is a small non locking folder that does not have a weapon designed blade. If you use ANYTHING as a weapon ( beer bottle, umbrella, kitchen knife) you will be charged with the same Penal Law violation as a Gravity knife or switchblade. If all other charges of assualt are dropped and the "weapon" was not in and of itself an illegal items, then that charge would be dismissed.
 
Thanks Tom. I appreciate the clarification :). Do you know of how routinely the NYPD does charge people with using "dangerous items"? Under the law and admin codes, apparently you must actually possess criminal intent for a certain item to be categorized as a "dangerous weapon". An example is carrying drugs on your person; the NYPD would automatically categorize any weapon on you as a "dangerous implement". If I for some reason were to be charged and could afford a legal team, Bernard Levine, the "knife expert" would certainly be on my list of defense witnesses. I just want to be clear: I'm not advocating breaking any laws. Ultimately your safety is up to you and what you deem necessary. If you deem it necessary to carry something, go with something legal and make damn sure you really had to use it.

Edited to add:

Actually I just reread your post, Tom, about the dagger, dirk, and stiletto issue. Perhaps the technical definitions might come into play if you had a good enough lawyer and maybe a noted expert such as Bernard Levine to articulate the actual definitions. As I understand it, a dagger is a double edged weapon, a stiletto is a blade that technically has a point and no edge, a dirk is a weapon of Scottish origin that traditionally had a single edge or a forward edge and a sharpened back-edge portion. Confusion comes into play in that some switchblade type knives were sometimes called "stilettos" and certain Naval pattern "dirks" had single or double edge blades. Whatever the cas, I think it fair to say that we all believe that these laws are rather draconian to say the least; otherwise we would not be on this forum :D.

As to my background, I am not a lawyer nor am I a police officer. My brother actually was given a citation for having a pocket knife and beat the charge a couple years back and that got me interested in the silly laws of NYC. As a proud 2nd Amendment supporter, I was rather outraged about him being given the citation and this led me to research the laws as thoroughly as I could.
 
ClgluckUSMC, NYC has under gone a dramtic change in their enforcement of the knife laws. The NYS Penal law concerning gravity knives was passed in 1958, but it was never enforced in a way that banned regular locking folding knives until the mid to late 1980s. The NYC Admin Code was passed by Koch, but again it was very seldomly enforced until the late 1990s till present day. The NYPD of today views arrest made for any weapon as a good arrest. I assume that your brother had an exposed clip of a knife in his pocket? It is hard to track the exact number of these arrest since either a universal summons is given for the Admin Code violation of an exposed knife, or a arrest is made for a gravity knife violation of the Penal law. You must remember there are over 40,000 officers in the NYPD, of that there are about 8,500 in supervision postions ( sargents and above) the rest are officers who are expected to make two arrest every three months or eight a year. Then there are special units who need to produce more arrest. If there is any rise in assualts, armed robberies, murder, rape or other violent crime, the first reaction is to make more weapons arrest to help control the carrying of weapons by the public and therefore hope to curtail the crime increase. As to knife definitions, very few if any officers truly know anything about knives and the different styles that are listed but not defined in the Penal Law.......For most of my life I have been a die hard Seacond Amendment supporter, but I will say that the simple presence of weapons in the hands of some people is not good for the public as a hold ( at least in big cities). I think what changed my mind was three of us in full uniform watching two teens ride down an esclator when another teen runs up behind them with a box cutter and slit one teen open from under his arm pit to below his waist line. the teen knew he was caught as soon as he made it the bottom of the escaltor and he did not care. This was somewhat normal behavior in the inner city. Evan today we need to have several off duty officers work for us as private security every Easter Sunday in a property we own in Times Square as this is a big day for gangs to randomly cut people in the area.....seeing all this makes you view allowing all persons to be armed a bit differently....
 
I carry a knife as a tool, multi purpose tool.When I need it to cut material open packaging and to have on my side for peice of mind and when the going gets tuff.
 
I get ya Tom. I myself was a victim of several muggings/assaults. I used to have fairly liberal views until I became a victim of crime. I personally think the best way to stop crime is not with weapons laws but having offenders thrown in jail for long periods of time. It certainly peeves me, to say the least, to see criminals goto jail as if there were a revolving door. I was assaulted a couple years back by a guy pretending to have a gun. We ended up in a grapple and I realized he had no gun. I managed to choke him out and the police came to cart him away. The police were nothing but helpful and that experience made me hold many in the NYPD to the highest regard. Later, the prosecutors told me he had a rather extensive rap sheet. It made me mad as hell to know that people like that end up in and out of prison. Another time, a fellow pulled a knife out on me but I ran off before he could do anything. Bet he was just another potential brain surgeon, too.

My brother actually beat the charge because he was once verbally reprimanded for having a folding knife in his pocket, pocket clip out. He used to work a late shift and he lives in a pretty bad neighborhood; a blue collar guy. The officer confiscated the knife but let him go and told him he could not carry a concealed knife. As my brother required a blade of some sort for his job (cutting materials in storage facilities) he kept a new knife on the outside with pocket clip inboard on his pocket. Sometime later, another police officer saw it and this time he was given a citation for having a knife exposed, thereby creating a "public disturbance", and had to show up in court. He did and explained to the public defender his confusion over what he could or could not do. The public defender explained to the judge how he received conflicting responses from different officers and the judge threw out the case. He never got his knife back but I believe it was a Gerber EZ Out so not a big loss.
 
Why are people posting anti-knife posts on blade forums? I don't get it. This is a forum that promotes knives. If you don't like pocket clips don't buy a knife with this feature. Don't chastise Americans because we carry knives with clips, and can carry knives that are illegal in your country.
 
nodh said:
We dont have that problem in the "old part of the world".
What is it about you people and all these pocket clips on every edge tool there is.
If she had just had it in her pocket like a normal Swiss Army knife noone would have bothered her in the first place. Why show to everyone and his cousin "Hey, I have a knife"

The second thing that confuses me is that everyone is so fanatical into this "self defense" crap. A knife is a TOOL to cut different kinds of materials with. Why do you need a knife for self defence? because the other guy has a knife and he might be a bad guy? I need a bigger weapon because the other guy has a weapon.

Compare a Victorinox folder with different gizmoes on and a CQC7 with Wave. One is mainly for solving problems during a picnic and the other one is for cutting people.
There is no normal need whatsoever for a knife that opens up in no time at all.
There might be some special uses but there are not that many cayaking people, paragliders, climbers etc. out there to justify the need for so many types of swish swosh knives.

There is no use for a knife for self defense. 1: the bad guy always has the initiative. 2: you need lots of training to "survive" a knife fight 3: knife fights are not minute long like those with Steven Seagal, a real one is over in seconds and usually the bad guy wins.

Well, I too would like to have a CQC7 with wave just because it might be cool, but it might end up in the collection because a SAK or similar knife is more likely to pass any eventual security check. Even a Gestapo trained, Al-Qaida indoctrinated NY cop that had not gotten his coffee yet. Hey, it is the new intel from DHS "We can not find any Al Qaida, we have looked for people with bandaged heads but there are none so they must be in disguise, maybe they look like young kids with pocket knives".

Just because you have the RIGHT to bear arms, doesnt mean that it is RIGHT all the time.
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(cough cough)

Sorry, but before trying to have an opinion it would behoove you to actually know what you are talking about. I 100% completely disagree with your entire post for a variety of reasons. Half of which you attempt to express your thinking as the guide we should all follow because you said so. :confused:

  • Apparently a knife shouldn't have a pocket clip.....and if it does we shouldn't use it. (there just might be a reason most major manufactures make them WITH one to begin with)
  • We shouldn't "display" a knife in public. (in several places it is required by LAW)
  • A knife apparently isn't supposed to be used for self defense.
  • Apparently a CQC7 is intended for cutting people. (who knew)


And the mother of all .....

"Just because you have the RIGHT to bear arms, doesnt mean that it is RIGHT all the time."


I find it pointless that you would even try to form an opinion on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms with zero understanding what that even means.

In short ...

The Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is about Freedom, Self Defense, Safeguarding the Bill of Rights, and Protecting against Government Tyranny and Oppression.


Sorry you may not enjoy that right in Sweden.....we as Americans do.
 
I really don't understand this knife phobia... and a lot of people forgot that a knife in not ( only ) a weapon, but a useful tool .BTW, yesterday evening I read a survival book, it has a chapter on urban survival :) . you are advice , in case of an assault in your home, to not use a knife because it could be used against you. another advice :
" It is sometimes suggested that taking up martial art can be useful, but these specialist skills can be lethal; always bear in mind that if you kill or seriously injure an intruder in this way, you could be punished for making unreasonable use of force "
So, bear in mind this, when somebody try to stab you or to rape your friend or wife...
A couple of months I was in a pub with some friends. An young lady needed a sharp blade to cut a label from a new shirt. I gave her my LM Squirt. Her girl friend saw it and said : What are you doing with THIS ?! :D
 
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