Artificial primitive firestarting...you know what I mean?

misanthropist

misanthropist

Joined
Jan 28, 2007
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1,236
You know what I carry for starting fires? Two things: a bic lighter, and a firesteel. I use the firesteel once in a while, if there is a bit of fatwood around, or if I happen to have some on me.

But I don't pack any charcloth or other tinder. In fact, I don't see the point of this at all. Here is why:

To make charcloth work, it has to be dry. At least that's my experience. But you know what else works really well as long as you keep it dry? A bic lighter, and you can probably light a hundred times as many fires with a bic lighter as you can with an equivalent volume (or even weight) of charcloth.

Another good solution is the whole vaseline/cotton ball thing...except again, if you have a bic lighter, for the weight or space, you will get a lot more uses out of the bic. And once the balls are gone, they're gone...just like the butane. But at least you get a little sparker with the bic.

Now I am all for primitive technology...I drive an '86 ford. But if I am out in the bush, I generally want maximum utility for my space/weight. How many firestraws do you figure you need to compete with one disposable lighter?

And with char cloth and fire straws, and all the other artificial tinder, you can't just go making more indefinitely. I guess in a survival situation you could make more charcloth by giving up on a pair of pants etc, and then the skills you developed using it in the past would be worthwhile, but man, how much better off would you have been if you owned a 99 cent lighter as well? No cutting up your pants to burn, etc...

Anyway I often question the logic of packing things like fire pistons etc, just because the tinder seems just as artificial and manufactured as my bics, if you know what I mean, only with a lot more drawbacks.

The toys are cool...is our love of old school gear causing us to overlook better solutions to survival problems?
 
I understand what you are saying.

I normally have a firesteel and then some cotton balls or tinder quick tabs, with a lighter for backup.

With the lighter alone I still have trouble getting a fire going w/o some really good tinder so the firesteel and tinder is about as good. I used to carry a lighter and the fire starting blocks but those were a lot heavier.
 
I love making fire the old fashioned way :)

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Whats not pictured is the Bic Lighter in my pocket. ;)
 
“But I don't pack any charcloth or other tinder. In fact, I don't see the point of this at all.”

Me neither. I toke so I carry a Zippo. As well as doing what Zippos are good at I can run it on other things at a pinch. I also carry as gas lighter because toking a pipe lit with a Zippo is nasty. Those are always with me. Out in the sticks I'll probably chuck in a spare gas lighter somewhere 'cos it weighs so little, and I do carry a flint and steel. Beyond that there are numerous things around me that will burn; inner tube rubber bands are about as waterproof a tinder as I can imagine, cotton wool and the like are in the med kit, tiny bit of steel fur soaked in oil already lives with the wet-n-dry retouch packet, potassium permanganate lives in the med kit, and so on. I'd have to be in a very unlikely EE scenario to be stripped of all those things. Carrying a big bunch of pre-prepared tinder is rather more akin to the traditional skills practitioner than anything I might realistically need so survive X. It's good stuff; so is making a bow or a spoon, but so unlikely to be anywhere near the top of my list of needs for surviving.
 
This winter I was out almost every weekend in rainy or snowy weather practicing firecraft. I found the Bic to just about useless, if the wind didn't blow out the flame, the cold temps made the flame so small that moving the lighter would put it out. I know some folks say their backup system is three Bics...but I can't imagine that they use them in nasty weather. What I found to be reliable was the cottonball and PJ and a firesteel...that and some really thin sliced dry wood shavings could generate enough heat to dry and ignite small kindling.
 
Misanthropist, you don't mention where you live -- and camp -- but out here in the western mountains, there is always a wind a'blowin'. Sometimes gently, sometimes hard. I would never depend ONLY on a BIC under windy conditions, as that little gas flame is easily blown out by even a gentle wind.

Of course, that doesn't really matter so much unless you're in dire straits and need that fire now. That's why I carry my old Zippo, filled, plus a couple 1/8 ounce Tobasco bottles cleaned and filled with Zippo lighter fluid. A Zippo will light tinder, etc., long after the wind has blown out a BIC.

If you're really up to you anus in alligators, that's when you break out that ever faithful road flare! ;)

Just my take on the matter.

L.W.
 
Misanthropist, I read enough of your posts to know that you know this, but in your post you are confusing your ignition source with tinder. A firesteel may be an analog for a firesteel or traditional flint & steel, but it doesn't negate the need for tinder.

Perhaps with the reliable, long-lasting flame of a Bic, you will be able to make fire with less than ideal tinders, but I'm sure you aren't simply touching your Bic's flame to your fuel wood to make a fire. :cool:


-- FLIX
 
Of course you are right...but what I find (I am incidentally also in the windy western mountains most of the time) is that I can simply make a twig bundle from lots of material around a 16th of an inch thick or less, stick the bic in there, and light it. Even wet, the twigs act as a firebreak and there is enough heat in the flame of the bic to ignite the tinder, and in general a twig bundle will go up pretty good unless it is absolutely soaking!

But then I just make a feather stick, and light it with that same bic.

I will definitely admit that a better firesteel is nice under windy conditions, but if it's heavily dependent on pre-made tinder...you know what I mean?

I guess the bics allow me to use more natural tinder rather than pack extra in. That's my experience anyway.
 
misanthropist said:
Of course you are right...but what I find (I am incidentally also in the windy western mountains most of the time) is that I can simply make a twig bundle from lots of material around a 16th of an inch thick or less, stick the bic in there, and light it. Even wet, the twigs act as a firebreak and there is enough heat in the flame of the bic to ignite the tinder, and in general a twig bundle will go up pretty good unless it is absolutely soaking!
Click to expand...

If you can do that then I see your point!
 
I carry prepared tinder with me all the time, but never end up using it - just like the Bic lighter I carry. It is there in case i need it, but in nonemergency situations, I like to practice with natural tinder and my firesteel.

-- FLIX
 
That is cool and I definitely don't knock anyone's choice of tools...whatever works for you, or you enjoy, or however you like it is fine by me! I do think using natural tinders is cool!
 
My cotton ball/petroleum jelly mix and its film canister weight only one ounce.
its only 2 inches tall, 1 and 1/4 inch thick. So its already very light and small.

I never use a whole cotton ball to start a fire, just a fraction of one is enough to take a spark from a ferro rod.
At the amount/rate i use it i think i could start 50 fires maybe more from that one cannister.

I carry a peanut light and a small ferro rod on my keychain and besides that i have a ferro rod and cottonballs and a couple of bic style lighters in my pack.
The disposable lighters i use are all transparent so i can see how much fuel is left.
Can you get clear Bics? All the ones i see are not transparent.

I think it never hurts to to have a few fire sources/tinders available just in case.
 
My fire kit includes a firesteel, pj balls, trick b-day candles, aluminum foil, matches, magnifying glass and 2 bic lighters. I love to practice with anything, but generally bics are my users.
 
FLIX said:
I carry prepared tinder with me all the time, but never end up using it - just like the Bic lighter I carry. It is there in case i need it, but in nonemergency situations, I like to practice with natural tinder and my firesteel.

-- FLIX
Click to expand...

That too is my reasoning. I'm a military guy, so for some "mission" essential or critical items, we use P.A.C.E. for planning (Primary, Alternate, Contingency, Emergency). For me and my kids we always try and use the firesteels as our primary. It forces us to really search around for natural tinder to get a good start; it makes you organize your fire building material and think ahead so you have enough fuel to get it going and maintain it. I do have a small container of cotton balls/Vaseline and even some Quik-Tinder bundles in my PSK. However, if you get caught in a rain/snow storm, take an unplanned dunk in the creek/river and the temperature is dropping along with the sun; so too are your motor-skills slowing down as your blood vessels in your outer extremities constrict. For me, that's why you carry a good lighter (Bic) for a backup and even the artificial tinder...when you need fire, you most likely won't be in the condition to search for dry tinder or have the fine motor skills to utilize a knife or even a fire steel (although the actions are pretty straight forward).

Using primitive methods is less about the tool than the skills you gain. Even with a Bic or Zippo, getting a fire started in a downpour/snowing or under very cold/damp conditions is not easy (ask my son:D). Fire is important or essential enough to me to have more than one method and most definitely an emergency back up...the Bic is excellent; you arrive to your camp late and you don't want to screw around or when you are in no condition to play around because your cold, wet and hypothermia is knocking on the door.

There's a good fire steel in every kit as is a good K&M match case with matches and also a Bic lighter (usually two). I love cold weather, but I hate being miserably cold...when it's wet and cold I start planning for shelter and a fire.

I understand your reasoning, but I also know you're not replacing a skill with a tool...you're just taking advantage of a better tool. I want to try more flint and glass knapping, but even if I mastered that it wouldn't mean I'd leave my knives at home.

ROCK6
 
I respect the skills! I had never heard the PACE acronym but I do follow a similar approach, but it's more for infants or toddlers who aren't forming full words yet...I would consider it the "pac" or "pa" approch.


The only other thing I was going to add to this thread is to say that my fire source/tinder confusion comes from the fact that I consider (I was thinking about this last night) the butane in the zippo a form of tinder. So for me the firesteel/tinder combo is kind of equivalent to the zippo.

I guess I also have the advantage of having some skill with everything but bow drills, so it's easy for me to start making judgements about the gear, forgetting that I already learned some of the skills which, if I'd never used the primitive stuff, I wouldn't know.

Anyway I'm glad this thread is staying so civil! I wasn't sure if people would take offense but lots of good discussion here instead!
 
I think we have a misnomer here - artificial seems to be the problem word.

Steel is 'artificial' in that it does not appear in a good strength in nature. This is why it must be manufactured.

Perhaps the only way to make fire 'naturally' is a bow drill or hand drill - made with all found in nature materials.

However, the tinder must be pretty dry to get that to work as well - and we are back to dry tinder.

With all of this said - charcloth is nothing but smoked cotton - and I don't see that any more 'artifical' than steel.

TF

p.s. I love Tarmix post - he says the 'old fashioned way' way back when they had driers to make lint. ;)
 
How many of you have birch trees around your area?

Around me (Vermont) they are pretty common, and when I'm in Minnesota they are pretty common too.

Birch bark will light (even when wet!) with just a firesteel. Then, no other "artifical" tinders that have to be carried in. This is how I usually start fires. However, I carry various other firestarting stuff like firestraws, esbit tabs, and a candle just in case I need to light a fire much quicker and easier. I just wish I could carry dry fuel around with me too ;)
 
Sorry, I meant "artificial" in the sense that I find it somewhat "artificial" in the generaral sense to be dependent on a firestarting method that requires you to bring tinder with you. My bic lighters require this as well...but nobody pretends that they are anything else.

Now if you are going with all natural tinder, as some people here are, then terrific, as you have one-upped me with my butane tinder. But if you are packing tinder in with you, same as me, then my vote goes to the bic lighter in the ziploc bag as I think you get more fires for your space/weight.

I guess the thing that gets me about it is that I think a lot of people are preparing tinder at home out of stuff they would never have access to in the bush, taking enough to start ten fires with them, and feeling like they are doing something more "survivaly." Now, if you are learning skills (as evidently lots of people here are) by using different methods of firestarting, that's terrific and I totally agree that's a great thing to do. Or, if you just enjoy doing it that way, that is also great. But sometimes I think guys adopt these methods because they feel more "survivalistic" when in fact, if what they are interested in is simply survival, they would be better off with a more modern tool that unfortunately just doesn't feel quite so "first blood."

That's all I'm getting at.

Edited to add: yes, birch bark is awesome. It's not so common out here but when I lived back east - in fact pretty close to Vermont, but North of 49 - I used to play with it quite a bit.
 
I now always carry PJ cottonballs, a firesteel and a piece of fatwood. I have a couple of bic lighters as well. True it is redundant. I rarely use the cottonballs and usually use the fatwood or natural tinder to get my fire going. I never use the bic, unless lighting up a cigar for which they excel at!

I'm a little like Rock6 in attitude here. First, I like starting fires with firesteel - in the sense that I get enjoyment out of the process. There is a sense of pride to starting up a fire by firesteel that probably doesn't come even close than to do so with a bowdrill - but I haven't gotten there yet. I also think that there is a certain zen about gathering tinder and kindling and arranging it before hand to get the fire going. The bonus here is you get to use your knife a lot doing this.

There have been many times where I couldn't get natural tinder or scrapings from fuzz sticks to catch a spark and then I had to revert to fatwood scrapings in my kit. There have been a few times where I couldn't get the fatwood scrapings to ignite and I had to go to a PJ/cotton ball which has so far always worked for me. I view these instances as learning experiences. Most times, I could probably just find a scrap of birch bark and use a bic lighter. But I really don't enjoy doing that as much.

Now you can buy those windproof lighters that are like little blow torches. I'm sure you can fire up even very poor quality tinder with these things (at the expense of lots of fuel). Even if they were light and as long lasting as a bic, I doubt I'd be making my fires with them unless I needed to do so.
 
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