So who says one cannot manufacture AND resell? So since I sell a few does this preclude me from making? One can only make so many and I am sure that Chris is allowed some free time, some of which is spent online and even purveying in resale. As far as the price bought and sold, I would think that Chris would know what they can get for one and make a decision on that basis. As far as "they can make one for less" ,if he can make a profit on one without making it good for him,why should he be excluded from that. It also gives him more to sell at shows that he goes too, and as far as selling used as new, I would bet against that! Sounds like you are just madd because you had been bid against. Maybe it would be unfair for a "doctor" (or Bill Gates) to bid against you if they make more money than you. And God forbid you find someone charging more than retail for a "in demand" limited production product,what conspirousy(SP) theory could you think of then....
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Attempted price fixing on eBay?
- Thread starter Havoc
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I bought a knife from Chris Reeve. I did not buy the man or his company. I am very pleased with the product I bought. I think some people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. If you're not happy with the knife sell it. If you are happy with what you have, great. Why whine about something that you have no controle over and is really none of your business.
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gandolph - I bought a knife from Chris Reeve.
That's exactly my point. My only concern is that what I buy is accurately represented.
gandolph - Why whine about something that you have no controle over and is really none of your business.
Actually it is my business, selling rec conditioned or remanufactured knives AS NEW is at least misleading.
Now it could be they are selling them as something OTHER than new, but I need further clarification on this point. How this class of knives are represented was not indicated in Chris's post.
Note: My concern has absolutely nothing to do with if I like their knives, I think they are a good value, etc.
DaveH
That's exactly my point. My only concern is that what I buy is accurately represented.
gandolph - Why whine about something that you have no controle over and is really none of your business.
Actually it is my business, selling rec conditioned or remanufactured knives AS NEW is at least misleading.
Now it could be they are selling them as something OTHER than new, but I need further clarification on this point. How this class of knives are represented was not indicated in Chris's post.
Note: My concern has absolutely nothing to do with if I like their knives, I think they are a good value, etc.
DaveH
Someone seems to have too much time on their hands if all they have to do is watch "who" bids on e-bay and then try to get others worked up over it.
Sheeeeesh.
Jon
Quality Knives For Sale
Sheeeeesh.
Jon
Quality Knives For Sale
There is actually nothing wrong with what CRK did/does. On the contrary, it's common procedure with big companies. When they see their products being sold under retail they often try to buy them back.
There is a (worldwide) shipping and re-shipping of goods going on from (mostly) the USA to Asia and back. The reason? Different markets have different prices for the same product. Lets say Campbell exports thousands of soup cans to Hong Kong. The same stuff you can get here in the shelf sells there for lets say 30% less. Clever dealers (who actually specialize in that kind of business) now have the idea to buy the stuff there and ship it back to the US, where they sell it for slightly under US prices. Legal? Yes, but of course Campbell doesnt like this procedure, since they would loose profit from inland sales. But, now comes the kicker they do buy there own stuff back! Why? Supply and demand. If the demand here in the US is high and they have cans sitting in the warehouses in Hong Kong which they already sold they will buy it back and ship it back to the US.
Thats exactly what CRK does here. If they see their (new) knives sold somewhere for below retail), they can buy them and resell them like anybody else could. As you can see from the feedback of zero, they havent done it yet. The second market price for CRK knives is so high, that its not worth the time and effort to try and make some bucks from it.
Havoc, so while it might be frustrating to bid against the maker himself you still got a knife for a price which is below if you would buy the knife from CRK. Not a bad thing. And even if CRK would sell a second hand knife, it would still be like a new one and come with the full warranty. I wouldn't mind owning one of those and I own two CRK fixed blades now and five Sebenzas.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited 09-28-2000).]
There is a (worldwide) shipping and re-shipping of goods going on from (mostly) the USA to Asia and back. The reason? Different markets have different prices for the same product. Lets say Campbell exports thousands of soup cans to Hong Kong. The same stuff you can get here in the shelf sells there for lets say 30% less. Clever dealers (who actually specialize in that kind of business) now have the idea to buy the stuff there and ship it back to the US, where they sell it for slightly under US prices. Legal? Yes, but of course Campbell doesnt like this procedure, since they would loose profit from inland sales. But, now comes the kicker they do buy there own stuff back! Why? Supply and demand. If the demand here in the US is high and they have cans sitting in the warehouses in Hong Kong which they already sold they will buy it back and ship it back to the US.
Thats exactly what CRK does here. If they see their (new) knives sold somewhere for below retail), they can buy them and resell them like anybody else could. As you can see from the feedback of zero, they havent done it yet. The second market price for CRK knives is so high, that its not worth the time and effort to try and make some bucks from it.
Havoc, so while it might be frustrating to bid against the maker himself you still got a knife for a price which is below if you would buy the knife from CRK. Not a bad thing. And even if CRK would sell a second hand knife, it would still be like a new one and come with the full warranty. I wouldn't mind owning one of those and I own two CRK fixed blades now and five Sebenzas.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited 09-28-2000).]
Actually, this shouldn't really matter. I know that psychologically we may all want to be the first person to use any knife that Chris makes. But he is the one who determines "fitness for a particular purpose" -- which is what we're paying for. We're not really buying the right to be first owner, although the American ideal of ownership definitely contains that unspoken wish.
So in the same way that he overlooks each new Sebenza to decide whether it's qualified for sale, he could just as much buy an older one, recondition it, and determine that it too is suitable to stand in the place of any new one.
What we're investing in is a blade from a bladesmith, guaranteed by him to satisfy all of our cutting needs. Or did we think this was about receiving something that hadn't been defiled by another's hands?
If such a concept would affect the collectibility and resale of Chris' knives -- which in fact constitutes a portion of his market -- then I think those people should have a choice. They obviously are buying the knife for its unusedness, and not for the purpose of applying them.
Check the DOB on your knife if it really concerns you. Mine was born ten days before I received it; but even if it hadn't been, it's Chris' assurance of fitness that I care about most.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
Well since there has been no clarification on how reconditioned knives are represented when sold, here's what I believe would be the relevant Idaho code. I would think numbers
6 and 14 would especially apply.
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=480060003.K
Please note I am not disatisfied or angry at CRK, I just want to understand how reconditioned knives are represented.
DaveH
6 and 14 would especially apply.
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=480060003.K
Please note I am not disatisfied or angry at CRK, I just want to understand how reconditioned knives are represented.
DaveH
Chris, you ask, "Why should our bid on ebay be of question?", and the response is easy. Because it obviously puts your integrity into a questionable category with some of your potential customers. That is not to say that it should be in question, it's just that it IS in question. You have the right to build knives however you would like, and (legally) run a business however you think is best. Hell, I'd LOVE to own one of your knives, but the kids say I can't afford one right now. But, don't forget, the customer is king, and to all ends, integrity is everything. And if you, for whatever reason, lose your integrity, you have lost it all.....
I know Chris Reeve is and honorable man as is his company. And as such he should not have to respond to questions about his integrity.
If my character was being assasinated in this manner by people who have been observing me for years, my knee jerk reaction would be to kick some @$$. But hopefully I would have the class to not respond at all, and let my reputation speak for itself. Jerry
If my character was being assasinated in this manner by people who have been observing me for years, my knee jerk reaction would be to kick some @$$. But hopefully I would have the class to not respond at all, and let my reputation speak for itself. Jerry
Exactly same here! And I have nothing against CRK buying used knives back.
But contrary to what JohnW said, it does make a difference if the knife is new or has been used. It is the same with knives as with any other products. The knife can be made look new easily, but it does not mean it's in the same condition. The materials can get weaker and can wear down. This may not be a problem with CRK one pieces for example, but how would you know? Actually how would CRK know? They have no way of telling what the knife has really been through. By testing the knife, but the knife can be destroyed and weakened by the test alone. Of course they can test the hardness of the knife and that at least tells if somebody has for any reason tampered with the heat treat, but other stresses...
I'll stress again, I have no problems with CRK buying their own knives back reconditioning as long as they are not sold as "new." I might even be interested to buy one, depending on the price (the list prices have been a bit too much for me
Hugo (not attacking CRK, just want to know...)
Hang on a second guys.
CRK's integrity is not in question. Noone is seriously suggesting that CRK would sell reconditioned knives as new. I sure hope noone thinks they would even consider doing that. The question was about something else, buying up and possibly reconditioning and selling knives being resold by third parties in order to "prop up" or "fix" the price. That was the issue.
Surely noone believes CRK would ever not tell you what you are buying, an incredible new knife or an incredible reconditioned knife. What was questioned was a specific business practice that, as I understand it, CRK was thinking about and took some small steps toward. Don't let the discussion get off track into maligning one of the best makers out there. That MHO.
CRK's integrity is not in question. Noone is seriously suggesting that CRK would sell reconditioned knives as new. I sure hope noone thinks they would even consider doing that. The question was about something else, buying up and possibly reconditioning and selling knives being resold by third parties in order to "prop up" or "fix" the price. That was the issue.
Surely noone believes CRK would ever not tell you what you are buying, an incredible new knife or an incredible reconditioned knife. What was questioned was a specific business practice that, as I understand it, CRK was thinking about and took some small steps toward. Don't let the discussion get off track into maligning one of the best makers out there. That MHO.
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- Sep 30, 1999
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I believe Chris Reeve to be an honorable man. I have spoken to him at shows. If he wanted to do something underhanded on ebay, he could have used a different computer or screen name, but did not attempt to hide his identidy at all.
That said, I think y'all are nuts for paying that much for a production knife, but I guess that's why they give you menus in restaurants. We're all free to choose.
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Dave (Phil.4:13)
I Can Do All Things Through Him Who Strengthens Me
Here's Lifter: www.profitness.com/Profiles/profileDaveAbramson
That said, I think y'all are nuts for paying that much for a production knife, but I guess that's why they give you menus in restaurants. We're all free to choose.
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Dave (Phil.4:13)
I Can Do All Things Through Him Who Strengthens Me
Here's Lifter: www.profitness.com/Profiles/profileDaveAbramson
Hi Guys, There is no need for this to become a flame war. I believe this situation is pretty obvious, it's about perception. It seems to be clear that Chris Reeves has acknowledged that his company bid on these knives. Was it wrong? From his post, he does not apparently think so. But some people responding to this post do. I personally don't believe that in itself it was wrong, it is a free country. But I do believe it may send the wrong message to his customers. By the way, I am NOT questioning Mr. Reeves integrity or honesty. However, I do think that he needs to consider the effect of what it looks like when his company does this. I.M.O. his reputation is worth far more than a couple of used knives.
Just my thoughts on this situation.
Doug
Just my thoughts on this situation.
Doug
GigOne
Gold Member
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- Nov 27, 1999
- Messages
- 15,783
Amazing thread!
RANT ON
I have purchased and sold quite a few CRK's in the last 12 months. Several reasons; fantastic knife, extremely durable, very easy to maintain, wicked sharp, maintains a good blade, and the support structure is one of the best (if not "the best").
I've sent 2 Seb's to CRK for a "refurb" (my personal knives) and maybe 3 or 4 to CRK for "resharpening." What I do know..... they've been returned to me in a "new" condition and "at the level of sharpness that I expect!" Never had to send CRK a note saying that I wanted to send a knife back due to problems after they've performed their service. Never!
I don't know how many people that I've turned on to CRK's. To this day ~ they are all loyal users of their products! And for the same reasons mentioned above!
Would I purchase a reconditioned CRK? Damn straight! And for what amount? $200, $225, $250, $275, $300?????? Damn straight! And so would you! Folks, how much is a brand new knife (i.e., a Seb?
Would Chris Reeve buy a user Seb or other knife, refurb it and sell it as a new one? No friggin' way! I know this from my experiences with CRK. He has set standards for CRK and won't budge from them.
So what if he buys a user via E-Bay! I would! Especially if I could get it dirt cheap! Besides, how popular are the original CRK hand-made or "P" stamped knives? Or should I say, how hard are they to obtain? 99.9% of us would pee all over ourselves to stumble onto E-Bay and buy a user CRK hand-made or "P" stamped Seb for minimal $$! There are collectors and dealers out there that would! And who knows a CRK hand-made or "P" stamped Seb better than anyone else?
Refurbing a user CRK and selling it as a refurbed knife is simple. It's called using management skills to benefit from a "secondary market!"
I'm reading alot of "smack" of how he's buying users to refurb so to return them to the market place as "new!"
Shame on all of you who raise these BS suspicions and proliferate your mud slinging!
And especially, after hearing from Chris Reeve himself.
You buy a CRK knife and you become his experts? You know his values and his company practices?
You're not acting like Knife Knuts! So give it a rest ~ ~ your working overtime and not getting paid! !
RANT OFF
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GigOne
"Livin' Life - Full Throttle"
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"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon & a Walter Brend Model 2!"
[This message has been edited by GigOne (edited 09-29-2000).]
RANT ON
I have purchased and sold quite a few CRK's in the last 12 months. Several reasons; fantastic knife, extremely durable, very easy to maintain, wicked sharp, maintains a good blade, and the support structure is one of the best (if not "the best").
I've sent 2 Seb's to CRK for a "refurb" (my personal knives) and maybe 3 or 4 to CRK for "resharpening." What I do know..... they've been returned to me in a "new" condition and "at the level of sharpness that I expect!" Never had to send CRK a note saying that I wanted to send a knife back due to problems after they've performed their service. Never!
I don't know how many people that I've turned on to CRK's. To this day ~ they are all loyal users of their products! And for the same reasons mentioned above!
Would I purchase a reconditioned CRK? Damn straight! And for what amount? $200, $225, $250, $275, $300?????? Damn straight! And so would you! Folks, how much is a brand new knife (i.e., a Seb?
Would Chris Reeve buy a user Seb or other knife, refurb it and sell it as a new one? No friggin' way! I know this from my experiences with CRK. He has set standards for CRK and won't budge from them.
So what if he buys a user via E-Bay! I would! Especially if I could get it dirt cheap! Besides, how popular are the original CRK hand-made or "P" stamped knives? Or should I say, how hard are they to obtain? 99.9% of us would pee all over ourselves to stumble onto E-Bay and buy a user CRK hand-made or "P" stamped Seb for minimal $$! There are collectors and dealers out there that would! And who knows a CRK hand-made or "P" stamped Seb better than anyone else?
Refurbing a user CRK and selling it as a refurbed knife is simple. It's called using management skills to benefit from a "secondary market!"
I'm reading alot of "smack" of how he's buying users to refurb so to return them to the market place as "new!"
Shame on all of you who raise these BS suspicions and proliferate your mud slinging!
And especially, after hearing from Chris Reeve himself.
You buy a CRK knife and you become his experts? You know his values and his company practices?
You're not acting like Knife Knuts! So give it a rest ~ ~ your working overtime and not getting paid! !
RANT OFF
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GigOne
"Livin' Life - Full Throttle"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon & a Walter Brend Model 2!"
[This message has been edited by GigOne (edited 09-29-2000).]
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2000
- Messages
- 231
Thanks, I've been trying to get a life for a long time, but I've been having terrible luck finding one. Rick, I'm not trying to cause trouble. If I was, I could do a much better job than this. For starters, I'd be on the Good, Bad, and Ugly Forum yelling "Chris Reeve sucks!" or something. But I'm not, and I have no intention of doing anything like that. I had a legitimate question and wanted an answer.
It made no sense to me that CRK would be bidding on their own knife. If it would've been a rare older knife, I could see trying to buy it back for personal reasons or something. Or maybe trying to locate an out of production limited edition for a customer. But buying back a lower-end knife that is still in normal production made absolutely no sense to me. And if they weren't trying to buy it back, that left only 2 options:
1. They were just trying to bid up the price. or
2. Someone was trying to pass themselves off as CRK.
Neither one of these things would be good, so I needed to know what was what. Finding out that the manufacturer was a competing bidder just left a creepy feeling with me. Chris has every right to bid on his knives, but it's not something I expect to see, and it just doesn't sit well with me.
As for the comments from others about CRK possibly reselling used knives, I'd like to point out that both of those he bid on were new. One stated "comes NEW, UNUSED FROM THE CHRIS REEVE FACTORY", and the other said "BRAND NEW" along with "We are a factory authorized Chris Reeve dealer". Both knives were, apparently, never in the hands of an "end-user", so I would have no problem with them being resold as new. I think that is a non-issue. (Hey, I always try to be fair and honest, regardless of what some of you may think right now).
The situation didn't make sense to me, and it still doesn't. Why sell it, buy it back for more, then sell it again, when you could just make a new one and sell it for a greater profit? Heck, with demand being what it is, I'm surprised CRK doesn't go to stictly direct sales. But, whatever. I'm used to being confused.
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Carl
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2000
- Messages
- 231
Completely wrong. Chris wasn't even the next highest bidder on this auction. I've been outbid many times on many different things. If someone wants to pay more, they can go right ahead. But what I wanted to know was if this was an attempt to keep prices up to at least a certain level ("we'd rather buy it back ourselves than see it go to the public at such a low price"). Apparently it wasn't.
And how do you know I'm not a doctor? Or Bill Gates? Are you determining my income based on how cheap you think I am? Chris mentioned this is "the USA the home of free market trade.". He wants a good deal on selling knives, and I want a good deal on buying them - simple as that. If either of these deals is being manipulated in an unfair way, somebody should cry "foul". I just wanted to make sure it was a level playing field.
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Carl
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2000
- Messages
- 231
Originally posted by JBP:
Someone seems to have too much time on their hands if all they have to do is watch "who" bids on e-bay and then try to get others worked up over it.
Sheeeeesh.
I checked the history on an auction I won. Is that so unusual? I recognized the "cut-once" saying from CRK, so I checked the e-mail adresses out of cusiosity (to see if I recognized who it was - I've seen other forum members bidding before). When I saw who it was, I could only think: Huh?
As for worrying about who's bidding and getting worked up over it, some sellers rig auctions by bidding up their own items, or having a partner do it for them. This is illegal. So, yeah, I am a little concerned about who's bidding against me. (And before anybody accuses me of it- NO, I am not saying that is what Chris did, or was trying to do.)
So, Sheesh yourself.
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Carl
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