-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Attempted price fixing on eBay?
- Thread starter Havoc
- Start date
- Status
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Havoc, it may be possible that the profit to time ratio is greater on the selling of refinished used blades than on the NIB blades, this seems very likely to me.
For example the sharpening and coating processes might not be the bottleneck in the production line and thus blades could be refinished with actually little or no real "net" downtime in regards to the blades being ground from stock.
-Cliff
For example the sharpening and coating processes might not be the bottleneck in the production line and thus blades could be refinished with actually little or no real "net" downtime in regards to the blades being ground from stock.
-Cliff
GigOne
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 1999
- Messages
- 15,783
Sorry.....completely forgot that I was dealing with one of the typical "internet tough guys! Ya ain't gonna come hunt me down with some of your ninja, SEAL, CIA, or Special Ops black`world stuff are ya? hehe
Look familiar Carl?
And you still don't get it Carl. This topic (or your conspiracy theory) should have been handled in a "private" forum (e-mail) between you and Chris Reeve ~ the operative words are "first hand, privately and with the the source" (of your particular discomfort)! And then ~ if not satisified with his responses to you ~ then bring it to the appropriate forum.
You posted your errrr....stuff and Chris Reeve responded. What would make you think that you would have gotten any other type of response via a private e-mail to him!
CK,
No one has asked specifically if CRK sells reconditioned knives as new or used. That's too easy for a certain bunch to do! Besides, then it wouldn't sound like a conspiracy if they did!
An AMAZINGLY AMUSING thread!
------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GigOne
"Livin' Life - Full Throttle"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon & a Walter Brend Model 2!"
[This message has been edited by GigOne (edited 10-02-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 7, 1998
- Messages
- 1,838
I am amazed that there exists such a vitriolic thread on this forum. Especially since most threads here have a warm and fuzzy tone.
jc; you posted:
As a recent purchaser of a refurbished knife, I can explain about the process, thereby answering your question. I was involved in an e-mail discussion with Anne about a wood inlaid Seb; during this conversation, she happened to mention that a collector of CR knives had decided to liquidate his collection, had sent them to CR, and that one of these knives was a 1998 Gold Coin Sebenza. She offered it to me after refurbishing. I accepted. I cannot tell it from a new GC Sebenza, but here is a pic of the 'birth certificate.'
As you can clearly see (despite my obviously poor photographic skills), the certificate is clearly marked 'refurbished.'
So why don't you see more refurbished knives on the market? Well, first of all, I doubt that they are very many, compared with the volume of production of new knives. I believe that most people send their knives in for refurbishment and return, without a change in ownership taking place.
Secondly, it may be that the refurbished knives are offered to good customers first (I have purchased perhaps 15 CR knives over the past several years). These are my speculations.
I do think that we should now lay to rest the hypothesis that CR is selling refurbished knives as new ones. You now have concrete evidence that a refurbished knife was sold as refurbished. Until such time as it is shown that a refurbished knife was sold as new BY CHRIS REEVE (after all, I could conceivably sell this refurbished knife as new, without the Reeves having any knowledge or control over my actions), let us not make inflammatory and potentially libelous accusations.
The Reeves have an impeccable reputation in the knife industry. To cast aspersions on their integrity without one iota of proof is egregious in the extreme.
Walt Welch
jc; you posted:
As a recent purchaser of a refurbished knife, I can explain about the process, thereby answering your question. I was involved in an e-mail discussion with Anne about a wood inlaid Seb; during this conversation, she happened to mention that a collector of CR knives had decided to liquidate his collection, had sent them to CR, and that one of these knives was a 1998 Gold Coin Sebenza. She offered it to me after refurbishing. I accepted. I cannot tell it from a new GC Sebenza, but here is a pic of the 'birth certificate.'
As you can clearly see (despite my obviously poor photographic skills), the certificate is clearly marked 'refurbished.'
So why don't you see more refurbished knives on the market? Well, first of all, I doubt that they are very many, compared with the volume of production of new knives. I believe that most people send their knives in for refurbishment and return, without a change in ownership taking place.
Secondly, it may be that the refurbished knives are offered to good customers first (I have purchased perhaps 15 CR knives over the past several years). These are my speculations.
I do think that we should now lay to rest the hypothesis that CR is selling refurbished knives as new ones. You now have concrete evidence that a refurbished knife was sold as refurbished. Until such time as it is shown that a refurbished knife was sold as new BY CHRIS REEVE (after all, I could conceivably sell this refurbished knife as new, without the Reeves having any knowledge or control over my actions), let us not make inflammatory and potentially libelous accusations.
The Reeves have an impeccable reputation in the knife industry. To cast aspersions on their integrity without one iota of proof is egregious in the extreme.
Walt Welch
GigOne
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 1999
- Messages
- 15,783
Walt,
Thank you for providing "us" with this pertinent information and picture!
And I totally agree with your last statement, "egregious in the extreme!"
------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GigOne
"Livin' Life - Full Throttle"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon & a Walter Brend Model 2!"
[This message has been edited by GigOne (edited 10-02-2000).]
Thank you for providing "us" with this pertinent information and picture!
And I totally agree with your last statement, "egregious in the extreme!"
------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GigOne
"Livin' Life - Full Throttle"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Happiness is a belt-fed weapon & a Walter Brend Model 2!"
[This message has been edited by GigOne (edited 10-02-2000).]
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
So I emailed CRK, and Bridget said please call and talk to Chris, which I did.
First I would reccommed anyone that might have questions to call and ask for Chris.
After speaking with Chris, my concerns about matters brought up in this thread are completely satisfied.
I will also say that I'm surprised by the energy surrounding this thread, I feel one has to very careful in this medium, things seem to get out of hand quickly.
If I have offended anyone I apologize.
DaveH
First I would reccommed anyone that might have questions to call and ask for Chris.
After speaking with Chris, my concerns about matters brought up in this thread are completely satisfied.
I will also say that I'm surprised by the energy surrounding this thread, I feel one has to very careful in this medium, things seem to get out of hand quickly.
If I have offended anyone I apologize.
DaveH
- Joined
- Jan 19, 1999
- Messages
- 842
Wow! I go away for a few days and all hell breaks loose. Nice to see someone else raising cain for a change.
Having been a major CRK dealer for a few years now I got quite a kick out of this thread.
When I first saw it I was tempted to jump right in there and "give 'em what fer". The very idea that someone would question the integrity of Chris Reeve or any of the CRK crew was simply ludicrous.
Tough minded, hard-nosed, opinionated and outspoken, at times, yeah, just like most of us but dishonest? NEVER.
After thinking about it for awhile, though, I figured that Chris could speak for himself and and put this thing to rest. He did speak up just before I left town and I figured that it would just fade into the sunset. I guess I misjudged that one. I come back and it's three pages long. When you guys get a bone in your teeth you just don't let go.
After reading through all the preceding (At least the parts that were coherent), there doesn't seem to be much more to say except that there is not a burgeoning market out there in "refurbished" CRK knives. No dealers that I know offer them in their inventory. I never see them on any of the websites or even on the auctions. I know that I have never been offered any for resale.
As far as I know, the only way to get one of these knives is to call CRK direct and ask if any are available. If there are any available, I'm sure they would be offered at an appropriate price and marked accordingly as described by Walt Welsh.
There is an active market in older, collectable, models and when these knives are located or obtained by CRK, the seekers are either put in touch with the party who has the item or offered to the collector if in the possession of CRK.
As to the knives in question, these were both new knives being offered for sale by CRK dealers. There was nothing used about them. There is no difference in Chris buying them back and offering them through his retail outlet than if I or any other dealer were to buy them from these dealers and sell them through our own dealerships. They are new knives and would be sold as such.
There is nothing illegal, unethical, underhanded, improper, questionable, indecent or fattening about such practice.
It is done all the time between dealers, between dealers and manufacturers and between dealers and distributors. The fact that they might have left the factory and went to a dealer (or distributor) and then came back to the factory has no bearing on the condition of the knives. New is new. If we need to do that to fullfill backorders, so be it.
Someone asked why not just make more to sell without buying back stock? If they could make them that fast, they wouldn't be backlogged. It takes time to make these tools. They are made in batches and cycles. If the cycle hasn't come around and isn't due for a few weeks it just makes sense to buy some back when they get the chance. If it means having to put more money into the product in order to satisfy a couple of customers and doesn't happen too often, then it won't impact the bottom line too significantly and will pay off in good customer relations. It's just good business.
As for "jc from Jacksonville's" accusation of price fixing...baloney. It's true that Chris has made it clear to all of his dealers that he does not like us discounting his products.
He does not require any of us to sign any agreements or make any promises to the policy but he does explain why he feels that way.
Discounting almost put him out of business a few years ago and he is trying very hard to keep that from happening again.
We are free to sell the knives at any price we want. Most of us respect Chris's wishes and maintain the pricing voluntarily because we have found that it isn't necessary to cut the prices to sell these knives. It isn't price fixing.
Carl, I can understand your being a bit miffed at having to pay more for the knife but you weren't knocked out of the running and you still got it at a good price, below retail. Business is business. You can't blame Chris for trying to catch up on his orders.
Incidently, the folks selling the knives on E-Bay were, supposedly, dealers selling them at a discount "in violation" of Chris's wishes concerning the practice. His only action was to try and buy them back at a good price. If he hadn't been out-bid, he would have gotten them both at a higher price than he sold them to the dealers originally. Doesn't sound like "punishment" to me.
We really ought to give this a rest. The dead horse has been flayed to the bone and, as someone said earlier, it really is a tempest in a teapot.
Like I said, when you guys get a bone in your teeth.......
Peace
------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
(Don't click, just call)
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 10-02-2000).]
Having been a major CRK dealer for a few years now I got quite a kick out of this thread.
When I first saw it I was tempted to jump right in there and "give 'em what fer". The very idea that someone would question the integrity of Chris Reeve or any of the CRK crew was simply ludicrous.
Tough minded, hard-nosed, opinionated and outspoken, at times, yeah, just like most of us but dishonest? NEVER.
After thinking about it for awhile, though, I figured that Chris could speak for himself and and put this thing to rest. He did speak up just before I left town and I figured that it would just fade into the sunset. I guess I misjudged that one. I come back and it's three pages long. When you guys get a bone in your teeth you just don't let go.
After reading through all the preceding (At least the parts that were coherent), there doesn't seem to be much more to say except that there is not a burgeoning market out there in "refurbished" CRK knives. No dealers that I know offer them in their inventory. I never see them on any of the websites or even on the auctions. I know that I have never been offered any for resale.
As far as I know, the only way to get one of these knives is to call CRK direct and ask if any are available. If there are any available, I'm sure they would be offered at an appropriate price and marked accordingly as described by Walt Welsh.
There is an active market in older, collectable, models and when these knives are located or obtained by CRK, the seekers are either put in touch with the party who has the item or offered to the collector if in the possession of CRK.
As to the knives in question, these were both new knives being offered for sale by CRK dealers. There was nothing used about them. There is no difference in Chris buying them back and offering them through his retail outlet than if I or any other dealer were to buy them from these dealers and sell them through our own dealerships. They are new knives and would be sold as such.
There is nothing illegal, unethical, underhanded, improper, questionable, indecent or fattening about such practice.
It is done all the time between dealers, between dealers and manufacturers and between dealers and distributors. The fact that they might have left the factory and went to a dealer (or distributor) and then came back to the factory has no bearing on the condition of the knives. New is new. If we need to do that to fullfill backorders, so be it.
Someone asked why not just make more to sell without buying back stock? If they could make them that fast, they wouldn't be backlogged. It takes time to make these tools. They are made in batches and cycles. If the cycle hasn't come around and isn't due for a few weeks it just makes sense to buy some back when they get the chance. If it means having to put more money into the product in order to satisfy a couple of customers and doesn't happen too often, then it won't impact the bottom line too significantly and will pay off in good customer relations. It's just good business.
As for "jc from Jacksonville's" accusation of price fixing...baloney. It's true that Chris has made it clear to all of his dealers that he does not like us discounting his products.
He does not require any of us to sign any agreements or make any promises to the policy but he does explain why he feels that way.
Discounting almost put him out of business a few years ago and he is trying very hard to keep that from happening again.
We are free to sell the knives at any price we want. Most of us respect Chris's wishes and maintain the pricing voluntarily because we have found that it isn't necessary to cut the prices to sell these knives. It isn't price fixing.
Carl, I can understand your being a bit miffed at having to pay more for the knife but you weren't knocked out of the running and you still got it at a good price, below retail. Business is business. You can't blame Chris for trying to catch up on his orders.
Incidently, the folks selling the knives on E-Bay were, supposedly, dealers selling them at a discount "in violation" of Chris's wishes concerning the practice. His only action was to try and buy them back at a good price. If he hadn't been out-bid, he would have gotten them both at a higher price than he sold them to the dealers originally. Doesn't sound like "punishment" to me.
We really ought to give this a rest. The dead horse has been flayed to the bone and, as someone said earlier, it really is a tempest in a teapot.
Like I said, when you guys get a bone in your teeth.......
Peace
------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
(Don't click, just call)
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 10-02-2000).]
Hello, Personally this post is a slight bit on the absurd side. Like Dennis said Business is Business. Nothing seemed to be to out of hand in this adventure in Capitalism. Peace to all, and may all parties affected be satisfied or at least less grumpy in this business venture.
Like Rodney King said after the L.A. Riots
"Can Everybody Just Get Along"
------------------
Jonathan Chubb
Like Rodney King said after the L.A. Riots
"Can Everybody Just Get Along"
------------------
Jonathan Chubb
- Joined
- Jan 19, 1999
- Messages
- 842
Hear, hear, Jonathan.
------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
(Don't click, just call)
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
(Don't click, just call)
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
Strange evolution for a thread in CRK forum...
Walt - thanks for the good (and calm
) information about where to get refurbished CRK knives. That's what I wanted to know.
BTW, did you guys notice that actually it was the "defenders of CRK" whose messages were the most heated and caused this thread to explode. Strange indeed. Anyways, I hope we can now get back to normal CRK forum. But I still hope that people are allowed to write what ever they want here, not just good stuff.
...oh, BTW I have a large sebenza and like James Mattis said: it's the good stuff! Let us not forget that.
Hugo.
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 10-03-2000).]
Walt - thanks for the good (and calm
BTW, did you guys notice that actually it was the "defenders of CRK" whose messages were the most heated and caused this thread to explode. Strange indeed. Anyways, I hope we can now get back to normal CRK forum. But I still hope that people are allowed to write what ever they want here, not just good stuff.
...oh, BTW I have a large sebenza and like James Mattis said: it's the good stuff! Let us not forget that.
Hugo.
[This message has been edited by Hugo (edited 10-03-2000).]
- Joined
- Jan 11, 1999
- Messages
- 669
I have intentionally let this thread run until everyone has had an opportunity to say their piece. No matter what I had posted along the way, there would have been those who find it necessary to cast wondrous doubts my character. To those who have posted their support, thank you. I will say my piece now and then close this subject from further discussion.
I do not intend to discuss this trashing of me and, indirectly, my staff besides saying that anyone who feels strongly enough about it should have the courage of their conviction and speak to me directly. I am readily accessible to everyone who calls my workshop during our regular business hours of 7.00 am to 5.30 pm MST. Questions about my knives have a place in a public forum - character shredding does not.
Any post needs to be considered carefully because, while it is all fine and well to enjoy freedom of speech, that freedom does not come without the responsibility of the ramification of your post. Each person sitting at his or her keyboard has tremendous power to inflame, insult and cast aspersions in an arena where they can be anonymous. A seemingly innocent question asked here turned out to be loaded with implication and the subsequent responses, some of which were very impulsive, were full of implication and accusation. Consider carefully what you write before you write it. How you phrase your questions and comments can make all the difference with what implications it might have. All these posts are written into posterity and all of us are accountable for what we have written. No one has the right to destroy someone elses character or, potentially, his livelihood.
This thread began with a question concerning our bids on eBay for 2 supposedly brand new Shadow III fixed blade knives. It has gone off on a variety of tangents that include major accusations concerning how my knives are represented. The extensive and, at times, vitriolic discussion about reconditioned knives shows simply that there is a lack of understanding of the infinite care that we take in ensuring that every knife that goes out of the door of my workshop is 100%. Had we been the final bid on either of these knives, we would have paid the price, brought the knives back to the shop, checked them over and filled a back order. No knife leaves my shop without my personal inspection. I check over every knife that is bought back, before and after the reconditioning process. Any part on a knife taken back is replaced if it is not within our spec, regardless of the cost involved.
Most of the knives that we buy back have collectors value and therefore, after inspection and recondition (if relevant) are sold above the original selling price. To place this whole discussion in perspective, realize that the number of knives that we recondition under trade is in the region of 4-5 per year. (This represents less than 0.15% of my total annual production.) Every week, we recondition that many knives for the owners at their request. Our knives are among the very few in the market that are able to be fully reconditioned - yet another reason why they hold their value and have the asset of being both entirely useable and entirely collectible.
At almost every show that I attend, I go and see what knives the dealers have on their tables. Very often, I will see something that I can give advice on. I also have customers who come to me, asking advice on knives (new and used) that they wish to purchase from dealers. I will give all of them my opinion as to whether I believe it is a good deal or not. (This happens over the phone and email too, where a customer has seen a knife for sale at a gun/knife show or on the internet- eBay included!) I will share what background information I have on any knife i.e. when it was made, what steel, who ground it, where it was made, how many were made, to whom it was originally sold. This helps a customer or dealer ascertain whether the knife in question is worth the asking price. This is all part of the customer service at CRK - service that has earned a worldwide reputation.
So from what I have said above, please understand that the whole issue of reconditioned knives is a non-issue. I do not dupe anyone, I do not represent my product in any fashion other than with total honesty, concern for the performance of the knife and concern for my customer. It is what we have been doing for going on 17 years and I do not plan to change. We thank all of those who supported us in this fracas - their support comes from knowing who we are and how we do business.
Chris Reeve
Think Twice - Cut Once
I do not intend to discuss this trashing of me and, indirectly, my staff besides saying that anyone who feels strongly enough about it should have the courage of their conviction and speak to me directly. I am readily accessible to everyone who calls my workshop during our regular business hours of 7.00 am to 5.30 pm MST. Questions about my knives have a place in a public forum - character shredding does not.
Any post needs to be considered carefully because, while it is all fine and well to enjoy freedom of speech, that freedom does not come without the responsibility of the ramification of your post. Each person sitting at his or her keyboard has tremendous power to inflame, insult and cast aspersions in an arena where they can be anonymous. A seemingly innocent question asked here turned out to be loaded with implication and the subsequent responses, some of which were very impulsive, were full of implication and accusation. Consider carefully what you write before you write it. How you phrase your questions and comments can make all the difference with what implications it might have. All these posts are written into posterity and all of us are accountable for what we have written. No one has the right to destroy someone elses character or, potentially, his livelihood.
This thread began with a question concerning our bids on eBay for 2 supposedly brand new Shadow III fixed blade knives. It has gone off on a variety of tangents that include major accusations concerning how my knives are represented. The extensive and, at times, vitriolic discussion about reconditioned knives shows simply that there is a lack of understanding of the infinite care that we take in ensuring that every knife that goes out of the door of my workshop is 100%. Had we been the final bid on either of these knives, we would have paid the price, brought the knives back to the shop, checked them over and filled a back order. No knife leaves my shop without my personal inspection. I check over every knife that is bought back, before and after the reconditioning process. Any part on a knife taken back is replaced if it is not within our spec, regardless of the cost involved.
Most of the knives that we buy back have collectors value and therefore, after inspection and recondition (if relevant) are sold above the original selling price. To place this whole discussion in perspective, realize that the number of knives that we recondition under trade is in the region of 4-5 per year. (This represents less than 0.15% of my total annual production.) Every week, we recondition that many knives for the owners at their request. Our knives are among the very few in the market that are able to be fully reconditioned - yet another reason why they hold their value and have the asset of being both entirely useable and entirely collectible.
At almost every show that I attend, I go and see what knives the dealers have on their tables. Very often, I will see something that I can give advice on. I also have customers who come to me, asking advice on knives (new and used) that they wish to purchase from dealers. I will give all of them my opinion as to whether I believe it is a good deal or not. (This happens over the phone and email too, where a customer has seen a knife for sale at a gun/knife show or on the internet- eBay included!) I will share what background information I have on any knife i.e. when it was made, what steel, who ground it, where it was made, how many were made, to whom it was originally sold. This helps a customer or dealer ascertain whether the knife in question is worth the asking price. This is all part of the customer service at CRK - service that has earned a worldwide reputation.
So from what I have said above, please understand that the whole issue of reconditioned knives is a non-issue. I do not dupe anyone, I do not represent my product in any fashion other than with total honesty, concern for the performance of the knife and concern for my customer. It is what we have been doing for going on 17 years and I do not plan to change. We thank all of those who supported us in this fracas - their support comes from knowing who we are and how we do business.
Chris Reeve
Think Twice - Cut Once
- Status