ATTN: CALIFORNIA residents, if you own ANY NON-METALLIC knives, READ THIS!!!!!!!

Jun 29, 1999
OK, read this, the whole thing. The moronic legislators are at it again. Remember that Mad Dog Generation X you spent so much on? Well it's about to become a FELONY/misdemeanor to OWN! Along with Delta Darts, CAT Tantos, Lnsky knives, and any other nonmetallic knife. And the sad part is, NO ONE IS TRYING TO STOP IT. this is why you need to read the whole thing. So here it is.

{u AB 1188
u} Page 1
Date of Hearing: April 20, 1999 Consultant: Ignacio Hernandez
Mike Honda, Chair
AB 1188 (Runner) - As Amended: April 14, 1999 {u u}
{u SUMMARY u} : Prohibits manufacturing and selling knives capable of
evading detection by metal detectors. Specifically, {u this bill u} :
1)Defines "undetectable" as not detectable by a walkthrough
metal detector set at standard calibration.
2)Relies on Penal Code Section 12020(c)(24) to define dirk or
dagger as a "knife or other instrument with or without a
handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon
that may inflict great bodily injury or death."
3)Makes it a misdemeanor, punishable by up to six months in
county jail or a fine not to exceed $1,000, to manufacture,
cause to manufacture, import into the state, keep for sale,
offer or expose for sale, any undetectable knife, dirk, or dagger.
4)Requires any knife, dirk, or dagger, manufactured in
California after January 1, 2000, to include metallic
materials in its blade that will ensure that it is detectable
by a walkthrough metal detector set at standard calibration.
1)Defines "dirk" or "dagger" as a knife or other instrument with
or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a
stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.
(Penal Code Section 12020(C)(24).)
2)Makes the concealed possession of a dirk or dagger an
alternate felony or misdemeanor, punishable by up to one year
in county jail or the state prison. (Penal Code Section 12020(a).)
3)Prohibits the manufacture, sale, or possession of any writing
{u AB 1188
u} Page 2
pen knife, any lipstick case knife and any air gauge knife,
punishable by up to one year in county jail or the state
prison as the available punishment. (Penal Code Section 12020(a).)
4)Defines a "switchblade knife" as a knife with the appearance
of a pocketknife and with a blade of two or more inches.
(Penal Code Section 653k.)
5)Makes it a misdemeanor to possess or to sell a switchblade
knife. (Penal Code Section 653k.) {u FISCAL EFFECT u} : Unknown
{u COMMENTS u} :
{u 1)Author's Statement: u} According to the author, "Several tragic
events in the last decade have demonstrated the need to
improve the security in public buildings. While our current
system is far from complete, many efforts have been made to
provide secure areas for the public. One device that is
commonly used to produce these safe areas is a metal detector.
These devices play a critical role in assisting law
enforcement officers and security personnel with their jobs
and have met with great success in government buildings.
"Unfortunately, some knife manufacturers now produce bladed
weapons made from polymers that are advertised and sold with
the intent to evade detection by a metal detector. While I
believe that every adult has the right to own weapons,
including knives, there is no legitimate reason for a
law-abiding citizen to own a knife that has the exclusive
purpose of evading detection by a metal detector.
"AB 1188 simply requires the manufacturer to make these knives
detectable by a standard metal detector. It will increase the
level of safety of many California citizens and employees
while having minimal costs to manufacturers, retailers, and consumers."
2)According to the author's office, this bill's intent is to
prevent the proliferation of knives undetectable by standard
walkthrough metal detectors. These knives pose a unique
danger to the public because they are specifically designed to
evade the sensors of metal detectors commonly used at
{u AB 1188
u} Page 3
airports, courthouses and other government buildings.
{u 3)Manufacturing an Undetectable Weapon u} . Currently, the Penal
Code prohibits the manufacture of a very small class of
knives, a lipstick case, air gauge, and writing penknife.
These instruments are constructed to camouflage their true
nature such that they are not recognizable as knives. These
disguises result in a threat to public safety. For example, a
person is often searched for weapons at the entrance of a
public or private event. The person conducting the search
will be unable to identify the instrument as a knife because
of its manufactured disguise. This bill prohibits
manufacturing an undetectable knife, dirk, or dagger for a
similar reason: they are designed to evade detection at
important points of inspection.
{u 4)Lack of Intent to Manufacture an Undetectable Knife u} . This
bill penalizes the manufacturer of an undetectable knife.
However, many racial, ethnic, and religious ceremonies include
the use of knives or similar instruments. For example, a
traditional Mexican dance utilizes machetes. Often times,
these instruments are made of a synthetic material and could
be viewed as "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon"
pursuant Penal Code Section 12020(e)(24)'s language. In
addition, these instruments would evade detection by a metal
detector. The manufacturer likely did not intend the
instrument to be used in a harmful manner, nor manufactured it
to evade a metal detector. Would this person be in violation
of law pursuant to this bill? For example, a manufacturer
produces 1,000 knives per month. Due to an unforeseen
mechanical glitch, 100 of these knives do not receive the coat
of metal-flaked paint that the manufacturer uses to comply
with the provisions of this bill. Should the manufacturer be
criminally liable? What if the fragment of metal the
manufacturer places in good faith into the blade is
undetectable? Are there other situations in which
undetectable knives are manufactured for wholly lawful
purposes? By contrast, the specific intent of a manufacturer
of a lipstick knife or the other knives currently banned by
the Penal Code is to create a weapon that upon physical
inspection will not be identified as a weapon.
{u 5)Lack of Intent to Sell Undetectable Knife u} . This bill does not
require a person selling a knife to know that the knife is
undetectable. For example, a person holds a garage sale and
{u AB 1188
u} Page 4
displays what he or she believes to be a "fake" knife. He or
she holds this belief because the instrument does not contain
a metal blade. In fact, this person is at ease because he or
she is not selling a dangerous weapon. Nonetheless, is this
person in violation of the law as proposed by this bill?
{u 6)Carrying an Undetectable Knife through A Metal Detector Is Not
Punished u} . According to the author's office, the greatest
danger posed by an undetectable knife is that it may be taken
to a public building. Specifically, the author refers to an
incident in which a man went to a courthouse, walked through
the metal detector with a sharp knife-like object, and
eventually stabbed and killed a deputy sheriff. However, had
this bill been codified prior to this incident, the assailant
would not have been punished pursuant to this bill. This bill
does not criminalize the possession of an undetectable knife.
Nor does this bill punish the carrying of a knife through a
metal detector with the intent to evade detection.
Consequently, the assailant in the above incident would not
have been punished by this bill, but only by those statutes
already in effect. In addition, because the assailant made
the instrument himself, no manufacturer or retailer would be
culpable under this bill. The author may wish to consider
amendments to punish only those persons who commit the
criminal act of carrying undetectable weapons through metal
detectors and who have the criminal intent to avoid detection of knives.
Los Angeles Deputy Sheriffs, Inc. {u Opposition u} None on file {u
Analysis Prepared by u} : Ignacio Hernandez / PUB.S. / (916)319-3744

Well, are you mad enough yet? please copy this and send it to anyone that you can who manufactures knives- This opens the door to outlawing any knife. I can see it now, "Well, this guy once killed a Sherriff with a Swiss Army Knife, so...."

Joe Glessner, owner
Sycotic Samurai Cutlery

Well, well, well, it looks like the political pigs are at it again ...

I can not tell you what I'd like to do but you can guess ! I can't tell you it's time to take the law in our own hands or anything that outlandish can I? That is not the politically correct way of thinking and the yellow bellies, Klinton kissers, etc would get upset.

Well in a way, we can take the law into out own hands. Did you notice that no one is opposing this?
Did you see the telephone number at the bottom of the post?
CALL IT! Let these people know that we won't stand for laws like these! That reminds me, where is ATKI in this?
I suppose that the legislators feel a need to justify their existance, and feel that knifeowners are less likely to rebel than their other nemesis, the evil NRA.
What about the DEADLY, EVIL AND OH-SO-BAAAAD KITCHEN KNIVES?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?
They're responsible for the majority of stabbings in this country.
Maybe this legislation is just the tip of the iceburg, and kitchen knives really ARE the main target? If so, what'll we use then? Plastic knives? THEY'RE GONNA BE OUTLAWED!!!
Well, maybe we should all visit our friendly dentist and have our teeth sharpened, and have a manicurist make talons of our nails.

MAN!! I must REALLY be ticked off!! I almost suggested DNA Manipulation so's we ould be born with the sharpened teeth and nails. (What can I say? I'm scared of the dentist!)
Well, I'm rambling so I'll sto....

That's my two cents. Hey! How come you're giving me change?
Not the moronic CA legislators . . . All the CA legislators! It was introduced, at the request of sherrifs who handle courthouse security, by Assemblyman Runner, a conservative Republican. It has now passed both houses unanimously and has gone on to the governor's desk.

And I wouldn't say "nobody" opposed it, since I did - wrote a bunch of letters, made a bunch of phone calls, posted in the AKTI forum, etctera. The bill has been through some more amendments since the text quoted above, and some (but not all) of the objections raised by me and possibly by some knife industry people have been addressed.

Here's the text of the final version, which is not nearly as bad as the original. I like to think that I played some little part in making it less bad:


SECTION 1. Section 12001.1 is added to the Penal Code, to read:
12001.1. (a) Any person in this state who commercially manufactures or causes to be commercially manufactured, or who knowingly imports into the state for commercial sale, keeps for commercial sale, or offers or exposes for commercial sale, any undetectable knife is guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this section, an "undetectable knife" means any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that is commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon and is not detectable by a metal detector set at standard calibration.
(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, commencing January 1, 2000, all knives or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that are commercially manufactured in this state that utilize materials that are not detectable by a metal detector shall be manufactured to include materials that will ensure they are detectable by a metal detector set at standard calibration.

(c) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to a law enforcement or military entity nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of these knives to a law enforcement or military entity.
(d) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to federal, state, and local historical societies, museums, and institutional collections which are open to the public, provided that the undetectable knives are properly housed and secured from unauthorized handling, nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of the knives to these societies, museums, and collections.
SEC. 2. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to Section 6 of Article XIIIB of the California Constitution because the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the meaning of Section 6 of Article XIIIB of the California Constitution.

By the addition of the word "commercial" all over the place in the bill, it now no longer makes a criminal of a Boy Scout who whittles a wooden tent peg, or a hobbyist flintknapper. Non-California manufacturers and vendors of non-metalic sharp pointy things will have to avoid any suggestion in their ad copy that their non-metalic sharp pointy things are made to cause great bodily injury or death, if they want to sell them in California. I think my Kyocera kitchen knives are safe, since they are not manufactured in CA, and they are not marketed as weapons.

No, I didn't even try to argue for the right to keep and bear stealth daggers. That would have been a hopeless battle. Instead I tried to warn them of inintended consequences.

Ironically, the law will now have no bearing on any repitition of the incident that led to the introduction of the bill in the first place! It wasn't a Delta Dart or CIA Letter Opener or some such thing that triggered this. It was a guy who brought a plastic letter opener, that looked in the news photos like a touristy souvenier of some tropical place, to his sentencing hearing, where he stabbed the deputy DA with it. She recovered. He died of the bullet holes.

One big question remains unanwered: What is the standard callibration of a metal detector? Is there such a thing as "standard callibration"? When I tried to find out, from the LA County Sherrifs Dept. courthouse security people, they told me that they didn't want the public to know, because that would let people know what they could get away with smuggling past them. Now we who make knives are apparently required to know, in order to obey the law, that which we are not allowed to know, lest we use that knowledge to break the law.

Go figure.

AKTI Member # SA00001

[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 04 September 1999).]
I think they have an exemplar that they use for the legal definition. I guess it makes sense that they don't tell what it is, otherwise one could make a weapon that just barely passes. Like in many other cases, if you have to define it that narrowly, it's probably a bad law.
Certainly seems to ban taking a bit of wood and whittling out a wooden practice knife. What about the hard rubber, plastic, and wood "knives" frequently used for training?

The training knife is presumably designed not to cause great bodily injury or death - hence its uses as a training knife. Therefore the bill should not apply to such a thing. Nor would it apply to a non-metalic shiv you make non-commercially in your garage, even if you fully intend to do something clandestinely violent with it.

AKTI Member # SA00001
Well, now I'm a felon...thought it would be my guns first. So, what are they gonna do?

Sorry, but I am absolutly fed up with this crap.

I have a MD Micro...and it has no metal strip!...oh my I'm a threat to the security of California. Piss on them

"quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

And this suprises you? I mean this is California you're talking about.
The sad thing is that these laws set legal precedence for other states, so don't think it can't happen anywhere else.
No, you're not a felon for owning a MD Micro without the metal strip in CA. The act creates a misdemeanor, and it does not outlaw simple possession. If you try to sell one as a California knife dealer, and there is evidence that it was designed as a stealth weapon, as opposed to a tool for cutting where corrosion resistance or non-conductivity are critical, then you might be committing a misdemeanor.

AKTI Member # SA00001

[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 05 September 1999).]
Metal detectors are adjustable. If they tweak them too high, a gum wrapper will beep.Not good for moving the traffic.

Excuse me, but why are the police always exempted from these BS laws? Who on a police force needs a potentially lethal non-detectable knife? I understand that training knives are not designed to hurt people so I guess I am asking why do the police need the added protection of a general exemption?
Because there are times where police might need to use such a knife and if the exemption were not listed, it could present legal problems for the LEs using such a knife.
Also, an officer of the law may not carry one just because there is an exemption. Many departments have regulations governing the carry of knives (and illegal knives), much in the way they regulate what type of sidearm an officer can carry.
As a private citizen, I have as much need as an LEO, and possibly more, to carry a knife.

As a private citizen, I have a greater need than an LEO to respect the misguided sensibilities of my fellow citizens by keeping my self defense knife courteously out of sight, in order that it does not intrude on peaceful business.

I also have the right to defend myself and my family, even in a courthouse.
The incident of the DA and the letter opener clearly demonstrates that we can not and should not rely on the armed intervention of Law Enforcement for personal protection.

With minimal facetiousness I propose that, instead of disarming the public, we should distribute knives and guns to those who attend and participate in court activities, in order to assure security and the orderly conduct of business in the courtroom.

The same goes for airlines.
Allow and encourage the qualified to carry concealed weapons and that will make it less profitable for terrorists to hijack airliners.

I remind everyone: the control and prohibition of weapons has nothing to do with public safety and everything to do with power.

Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11
My attorney, otherwise known as The Wife, tells me that the traditional distance between the bar and the bench in a courtroom is two sword lengths.

This would suggest that courthouse security is an old concern, but it also suggests that there was a time when it was assumed that a gentleman in court, who was not a prisoner, would be armed.

Now people going into a courthouse are being treated as if they were checking into a jail, except that they're not confiscating belts and neckties yet. And I find it disturbing that the proliferation of metal detectors is now leading to legislation to make us conform our possessions everywhere to the requirements of metal detector zones.


Did I ever mention that I hate metal detectors?

AKTI Member # SA00001
If any of you rough Californians want to get legal, don't forget that auctions are free this month.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Thank Googness Janet ( The Murderer ) Reno doesn't know about this or she would take the most vocal 80 of us and have the FBI fire bomb us.

I'm still pissed that I cannot legally buy or carry a butterfly knife here in CA., esp. now that I can afford one. Back in the '80s I always wanted one but couldn't affort it. Now it's too late. But even if I could, I could not legally carry it.
I feel a butterfly would make an excellent, strong folding utility knife. I guess the flashy demonstrations in movies scared the hell out of lawmakers and 'concerned citizens.' The same as happened to the nunchaku in the '70s, only I feel, for myself, I could find more utility uses for a butterfly than a nunchaku.
The silly think is, a normal kitchen knife is no less deadly than a butterfly knife, and probably even more many murders a year are caused by butterfly knives as opposed to kitchen knives? Oops! I better stop, lest they take away my kitchen knives too.
Oh well - life goes on. The fact is there are rediculous laws against carrying or even pocessing certain knives throughout this once great country.

I personally don't worry about the rediculous laws. I will always arm myself (within reason, of course). The fact is, most police officers know who is suspicious or should be searched. And no one should go armed to a courthouse, or on an airplane - that's just a fact of life. Even if you get pulled over there should be no reason to get searched, unless you give the officer a reason to search you. I often carry a neck knife, which is really a concealed weapon, and more than likely a felony, but I stay out of trouble, and God willing I will never get caught with it concealed. If however I ever should be arrested for carrying a weapon, then so be it. I'd rather be put on trial by a few, than buried by a few.
Don't expect things to get any better, either. After all, this is Socialist Amerika, isn't it? Remember we are the only so called Democratic Republic that has a Communist as president. Both our president and her husband, and their supporters, have marched on this path all their adult lives. They will continue to use crime as an excuse to continue to strip us law-abiding citizens of our rights, so I for one don't expect things to get any better. You ain't seen nothing yet. I suggest you stock up on knives and arms while you can.
Look at the Third world countries, and you'll see what we will be like soon. Look at the Communist Countries and you'll see what we will be in the future. And guess what, we as a nation (generally speaking), deserve it. After all we put Hillary in office twice, didn't we? Or are the elections rigged? I think they are, but that is another story...
Well that's my 2 cents.