Axis Lock Fragile?

Keyman said:
Actually, they are both considered coil springs.
One is used as a torsion spring the other as a compression spring.

Yes Loonybin you are most certainly correct........a compression spring is much more durable than a torsion spring is (for the reasons you mentioned)......especially when it comes to repetitive motion.

When Schlage first introduced levers to their lock line up.
They designed the return spring for the levers using a torsion spring.
These locks were on the market for less than a year before Schlage did a re-design and made the return spring work using compression springs.
Schlage then supplied all it's patrons with replacement spring hubs with the new design, to replace all the older designs hubs that were still in the field.
Schlage backs up their product.

That is also why I really like the look of the new BM781; it utilizes a compression spring instead of the usual omega spring.
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I would be quite happy if Benchmade moves all of their Axis locks in that direction, as long as they don't become as stiff as Spyderco's caged ball bearing lock on their Manix 2 knives.
 
Camillus72 said:
Good Lord, that is one SWEET looking knife! Titanium integral and 20CV steel?

bm781.jpg
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Indeed it is! :cool: But the price! :eek:
 
loonybin said:
I would be quite happy if Benchmade moves all of their Axis locks in that direction, as long as they don't become as stiff as Spyderco's caged ball bearing lock on their Manix 2 knives.
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Have you ever handled a CRKT D.O.G.?
This CRKT D.O.G. is a Grant & Gavin Hawk design that incorporates their Deadbolt Over Grab locking mechanism.
This lock works very much like the axis lock, with the exception again being that the D.O.G. uses a coil compression spring.
Because of the springs strength they used to claim that it was impervious to debris blocking the deadbolt from working....dirt, sand, mud it doesn't matter the D.O.G. will still lock.
 
Keyman said:
Have you ever handled a CRKT D.O.G.?
This CRKT D.O.G. is a Grant & Gavin Hawk design that incorporates their Deadbolt Over Grab locking mechanism.
This lock works very much like the axis lock, with the exception again being that the D.O.G. uses a coil compression spring.
Because of the springs strength they used to claim that it was impervious to debris blocking the deadbolt from working....dirt, sand, mud it doesn't matter the D.O.G. will still lock.
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Haven't even seen it. I may have to look for one. Ks the knife fully ambidextrous?
 
loonybin said:
Haven't even seen it. I may have to look for one. Ks the knife fully ambidextrous?
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Yup, totally ambidextrous.
The steel is not that great AUS8, but the design is pretty awesome.
I'm pretty sure that's not the only knife Gavin & Grant Hawk make with that lock design either. Check them out.


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I luckily never have had a problem, and I always flick mine out hard using the lock, by force of habit. Plus, I incessantly fidget with many of mine while sitting at my desk or pacing around my home office. Not the least of which is my HK Snody AXIS, which I have had and been doing this with for well over a decade.
 
NSBFL said:
I luckily never have had a problem, and I always flick mine out hard using the lock, by force of habit. Plus, I incessantly fidget with many of mine while sitting at my desk or pacing around my home office. Not the least of which is my HK Snody AXIS, which I have had and been doing this with for well over a decade.
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I'm so glad you posted...

I'm new to the axis-lock and recently purchased a mini stryker. Have been thumb flicking it open and one-hand closing like a person with OCD. I have been thinking to myself, how long before the lock mechanism wears out? If you've been doing it for a decade, I'm not worried at all...
 
ak4seven said:
I'm so glad you posted...

I'm new to the axis-lock and recently purchased a mini stryker. Have been thumb flicking it open and one-hand closing like a person with OCD. I have been thinking to myself, how long before the lock mechanism wears out? If you've been doing it for a decade, I'm not worried at all...
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Two of my 710s have been thumb-flicked incessantly for almost 20 years. Don't fret.
 
For the record the MTBF I was quoted for average axis lock springs was something like 60000 cycles, or roughly 3 years opening and closing it at least 25 times a day religiously
 
I mentioned keyboards, and was told that was a "Compression" spring.
The spacebar on mine uses a non-coiled torsion spring (the "omega" spring is a non-coiled torsion spring. i.e. a bent piece of spring wire).

I'd bet a shiny nickel the spring on the keyboard has been cycled more than 60,000 times without failure.
I'd bet my winnings that if the "omega spring" had at least one coil, the failure rate would approach zero. It would get even closer if there were two coils.
 
I would begin to wonder if there is a burr or rough spot somewhere in the liner or on your axis lock that is causing undue wear on the spring. Has it been on the same side each time it has broken? Springs can probably get a bad tempering just like a blade, but I would suspect something else. Even fidgeting and open/closing the knife should be okay for a long, long time.
 
First, as a mechanical engineer I'm going to call BS on a lot of claims here that say an AXIS lock can't be played with because of the omega spring.

And second, as someone that has had dozens of AXIS locks with a few riding in my pocket every single day for 3-6 years and being played with repeatedly multiple times a day, there is not a tendency to break with repetitive use.

An omega spring is not a torsion spring because they apply a torque and the lock bar moves in a straight line and is resisted with a force. An omega spring is more like a modified cantilever spring that is fixed at one end and flexes over it's length, like a diving board, that has been modified to be curved. Regardless, springs are named based on the type of forces they provide and a general description of their shape but don't describe what is happening to the material the spring is made of so saying it's one type of spring vs another doesn't mean much.

You can also pull an AXIS lock back and forth as many times and as fast as you can until your blue in the face or your hand cramps up and the temperature will be lucky to increase a couple degrees. Friction against the scale will probably heat it up more than the flexing of the wire. And depending on the alloy it needs to get up around 300 degrees before you can start thinking about the temper and probably quite a bit hotter than that. I don't see a spring getting hot enough to burn you just from flicking it open and closed while watching TV. Boiling water is 212 degrees to help put things in perspective.

All that said and I have to admit I have had one spring break. It was in a knife that I didn't use much but that I had taken apart a few times. There may be a good reason Benchmade doesn't want us taking apart the knives. There may be a procedure that ensures the spring doesn't not bind anywhere or get pinched so the bending is over a much shorter length. There is also the possibility something damages the spring like a burr or rust or that the wire just had an inclusion or defect.

I made a new spring for my broken one using the good one as a pattern and using 0.025" MIG welding wire that wasn't even stainless, using a pair of pliers and wrapping the wire around round objects to get a smooth bend and I still have the knife and it still works fine. I also made sure I pulled back on the lock bar when I tightened the scales to make sure it was smaller and didn't get pinched.

Anyways, I don't think flicking your knife is an issue but that's my opinion. I think people taking apart their knives is probably a bigger issue. Especially when I can get my knife squeaky clean just using running hot water, liquid soap, and some q-tips and rags. There really isn't a need to take them apart yet it seems like most do it for some reason. I even use my folders to clean game and can get out dried blood, grease, and everything else without taking the knife apart.

IMO, YMMV, ETC
 
traumkommode said:
I would begin to wonder if there is a burr or rough spot somewhere in the liner or on your axis lock that is causing undue wear on the spring. Has it been on the same side each time it has broken? Springs can probably get a bad tempering just like a blade, but I would suspect something else. Even fidgeting and open/closing the knife should be okay for a long, long time.
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Something to look at .

My 710 is from the first production year, and one spring broke fairly early on . Sent it back for repair , word at the time was there was not enough clearance around the spring as it moved , which caused it to wear till it broke .

I thought that they either created more space or replaced with the newer version with the correct clearance , but the same spring broke a few years later. Keep in mind I own many many knives and the 710 was in a rotation of many so my guess is still rubs. It's been sitting in a drawer for years now .
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
First, as a mechanical engineer I'm going to call BS on a lot of claims here that say an AXIS lock can't be played with because of the omega spring.

And second, as someone that has had dozens of AXIS locks with a few riding in my pocket every single day for 3-6 years and being played with repeatedly multiple times a day, there is not a tendency to break with repetitive use.

An omega spring is not a torsion spring because they apply a torque and the lock bar moves in a straight line and is resisted with a force. An omega spring is more like a modified cantilever spring that is fixed at one end and flexes over it's length, like a diving board, that has been modified to be curved. Regardless, springs are named based on the type of forces they provide and a general description of their shape but don't describe what is happening to the material the spring is made of so saying it's one type of spring vs another doesn't mean much.

You can also pull an AXIS lock back and forth as many times and as fast as you can until your blue in the face or your hand cramps up and the temperature will be lucky to increase a couple degrees. Friction against the scale will probably heat it up more than the flexing of the wire. And depending on the alloy it needs to get up around 300 degrees before you can start thinking about the temper and probably quite a bit hotter than that. I don't see a spring getting hot enough to burn you just from flicking it open and closed while watching TV. Boiling water is 212 degrees to help put things in perspective.

All that said and I have to admit I have had one spring break. It was in a knife that I didn't use much but that I had taken apart a few times. There may be a good reason Benchmade doesn't want us taking apart the knives. There may be a procedure that ensures the spring doesn't not bind anywhere or get pinched so the bending is over a much shorter length. There is also the possibility something damages the spring like a burr or rust or that the wire just had an inclusion or defect.

I made a new spring for my broken one using the good one as a pattern and using 0.025" MIG welding wire that wasn't even stainless, using a pair of pliers and wrapping the wire around round objects to get a smooth bend and I still have the knife and it still works fine. I also made sure I pulled back on the lock bar when I tightened the scales to make sure it was smaller and didn't get pinched.

Anyways, I don't think flicking your knife is an issue but that's my opinion. I think people taking apart their knives is probably a bigger issue. Especially when I can get my knife squeaky clean just using running hot water, liquid soap, and some q-tips and rags. There really isn't a need to take them apart yet it seems like most do it for some reason. I even use my folders to clean game and can get out dried blood, grease, and everything else without taking the knife apart.

IMO, YMMV, ETC
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You are correct FlaMtnBkr my terminology is incorrect.
A omega spring is a cantilever type of spring, not a torsion spring.
However, that being said a coiled compression spring is a much hardier design than a cantilever spring is.
The load that is put on the spring is spread across a lot more material on a coiled compression spring design than it is on a cantilever design.
I am not one who believes there is anything wrong with the omega spring design.
I personally have never had a spring break and I have taken all of my knives apart millions of times.
No really.
I have no doubt that omega springs do break.
Though, I am not convinced that they all break for the same reason.
No, they are definitely not heating up and losing their temper.
But, temper could be one of the reasons they break.
Some springs could be over tempered making them harder and more brittle.
Some springs could be continuously rubbing on the scale and creating a thin/flat spot on the spring making it more susceptible to fatigue.
It would be interesting to see if more small knives springs were breaking than springs in big knives.

As I said, I personally have had no such issues with any of my BM knives.
 
In a way, this debate always reminded me of the now very old debate about the springs used in the Colt SAA compared to the coil springs used in the Ruger Blackhawk and its kin. I was intrigued when Spyderco introduced a thin, basically rectangular, coil spring in the Manix 2. I looked at that and thought "with a little modification, that could have been used in the Axis locks" (or at least in the bigger knives - maybe not a 530/531, for example).
 
Dozens of Benchmade with the Axis system over several years of pretty regular flipping and using. Never one problem with any of the springs.
 
Yeah, I don't buy that flicking my knives is going to break springs.
I am the most compulsive flicker ever.......walking my dogs....flick, driving all day long....flicking, watch TV.....flicking, you get the idea. I haven't had one spring break. Axis lock is my favorite by far and any knife with it begs to be played with! I also cut stuff with them!
Joe
 
Given the fact that the patent has expired for the axis lock, anything could be in the mix, including having that coil spring show up in newer models. I own a Manix 2 and it's a very solid knife without play of any kind. Who knows?
 
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