Axis Lock testing

Originally posted by WadeF
Someone who looks at an Axis lock and says "OH MY GOD! The locks on the handle! I might disengage it!" but doesn't have any pratical experience with Axis locks shouldn't be used to form an opinion about the lock.
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I've never quite understood this position. It seems to me that with perhaps a few exceptions such as the CRKT Bladelock all folders have the lock release on the handle.

In my experience it takes quite a deliberate motion to open up an Axis lock. I have no concerns that I will do so by accident.

I also have a Greco framelock that I have used extensively. After seeing a thread about spine whacking and the supposed instability of liner/frame locks I decided to give it a try just out of curiosity.

After repeated full-force spine whacks I managed toput a nice .5 inch dent in my wood work bench, but that's about it. The lock never moved. I trust it as much as I do any other mechanical safety, which is no more than I have to.

Most (virtually all) lock failures of which I am aware are caused by the lock unlocking rather than being destroyed. If I were to choose between lock A which can withstand 10,000 in./lbs. but opens up if you jiggle the handle and lock B which can withstand only a few pounds of pressure but is generally stable during usage I would prefer lock B.

Overall I prefer the Axis lock because of the convenience and smoothness that it provides. I really wouldn't want to EDC anything else. If a spring breaks I am quite confident that I can fabricate and install a replacement.
 
Originally posted by WadeF
I think you could argue lockbacks and framelocks have the same chance, if not a greater chance, of being disengaged at the wrong time as well.
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I think Brownie makes some good points, but Wade's point back is at least as convincing. The fact is, axis locks aren't failing in real life. Well-done lockbacks and framelocks are very reliable as well, but we do hear of at least as many real-world failures -- many framelocks are susceptible to counter-clockwise torquing, especially if your hand slips even the littlest bit (this is for a right-handed framelock). We also occasionally hear of lockback failures. I get about one failure to lock open a year when I carry a lockback deep in my front pocket -- I open it up, some lint has gotten into the little notch cut-out, and prevents the lock from fully locking. And it's not hard to invent hand positions that end up with pressure right over the lock button. We just don't hear these kinds of problems about axis locks. Which leads to the conclusion: at least for real-world hard-use, axis lock is at least as reliable, and probably more reliable, than anything we know about.

Brownie is definitely right about the fact that we don't have an extensive database of result for one particular type of hard use, and that's combative (hopefully defensive) use of axis locks. On the other hand, we don't have an extensive database of combative experiences for any lock -- framelock, lockback, compression lock, whatever. I do agree again with Brownie that it makes sense to look for theoretical weaknesses and try to decide how important those weaknesses are. Again, though, keep in mind that for real-world hard use, axis locks are probably more reliable than anything else. So if I want the combination of most-reliable-based-on-real-world-results lock plus least-susceptible-to-theoretical-failure lock, what I should do is: buy an axis lock, and spend 10 minutes grinding the lock buttons down!

There, now you have a lock that's arguably the best you can do, period.

That said, there's no reason I can see that a compression lock shouldn't be just as reliable, I just haven't had as much personal experience with one.

Joe
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
The only lock I do not worry about, I own.

Thats the ER MPC lockback thats has the passive crossbolt safety as a physical backup to the primary lockback.

Brownie
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This sounds like a solid lock for sure, but how much work is it to turn the safety on and off? If you're in a stressful situation you're saying you'll be able to open the lock and activate this safety? I've tossed around the idea of picking one of those ER's up, but they are damn ugly if you ask me! :p
 
Ugly is in the eyes of the beholder.

Like the glocks when they first appeared in the US which were scorned for their asthetics and are now coveted for their strength and ergonomics, the ER's may become very popular once they have been discovered to be the rock solid performers they are.

The ER MPC crossbolt safety would not be used in a defensive scenario, per se, and would not be quick to engage/disengage in a dynamic quick moving battle.

The lock comes into it's own when doing hard work which is when the stress of the lock are needed.

Brownie
 
lol true about the ugliness of ER knives; they should get an award for ugly, haha. functional? yes. ugly as the devil? hell yes.. lol :D

joe talmadge - if i sent an axis lock knife to you, would you grind that sucker down for a little $$?? cuz the only thing i know how to grind down is my bank funds. if you don't do that sort of work, can you link or refer me to someone who does? cuz i really like some of those axis lock models, especially that large one that looks like a spyderco.. i think it's the AFCK or something like that. real nice lookin knife. holler @ me dude.
 
I think most ER folders are cute. Maybe not as cute as the Spyderco Dodo (the cutest of all cutlery), but cute enough to pinch their little cheeks (which most people mistake as thumbstuds).

Anonymous, you may also want to contact SC_Rebel1857 about modifications. Assuming I can even drive two miles this weekend, I'm sending a knife down to him for modification. It'll be my first, but I've only heard rave reviews about his work and saw some pretty pictures of what he's done. Also, the knife you're talking about is the 806D2 AFCK (Advanced Folding Christmastree Knife), and they're bleeping awesome.
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
Ugly is in the eyes of the beholder.

The ER MPC crossbolt safety would not be used in a defensive scenario, per se, and would not be quick to engage/disengage in a dynamic quick moving battle.

Brownie
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I'm sure if I got an ER I'd think it was a beautiful too. It looks like the type of knife that grows on you. However, the debate has been if the Axis lock would fail in the heat of the moment. If the ER crossbolt isn't set up to be used in a defensive scenario then it should be out of the debate. The Axis lock allows for a knife that can be quickly deployed and have a solid lock up. I think compared to other knives that can be deployed as quickly it wins out in the lock up department.

However if I was going into combat I would only carry a folder for utility work. I'd have a nice fixed blade on me for combat situations. The folder would be a back up to that, and I'd want it to be one of my Axis locks. :)
 
Originally posted by WadeF
I think compared to other knives that can be deployed as quickly it wins out in the lock up department.
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I can open some lockbacks just as quickly and with more surety of lockup than the axis lock (louder click when engaged, that's all), however, at this time, I can't do so as consistently as I can flick open an axis lock. For that matter, I think the lockbacks would generally take more damage if opened in that manner.
 
Originally posted by thombrogan
I think most ER folders are cute. Maybe not as cute as the Spyderco Dodo (the cutest of all cutlery), but cute enough to pinch their little cheeks (which most people mistake as thumbstuds).

Anonymous, you may also want to contact SC_Rebel1857 about modifications. Assuming I can even drive two miles this weekend, I'm sending a knife down to him for modification. It'll be my first, but I've only heard rave reviews about his work and saw some pretty pictures of what he's done. Also, the knife you're talking about is the 806D2 AFCK (Advanced Folding Christmastree Knife), and they're bleeping awesome.
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lol @ "christmastree knife"

i did both a username and keyword search on SC_Rebel1857 and no such name exists. my pm function is disabled, i was gonna try that even though that name doesn't exist.

i'm anxious to contact this guy if need be, so if anyone knows the correct name, pls drop it here.. thx
 
search for sc_rebel1957
 
AaaHHH!!

The ER folders are not as quick to deploy the crossbolt secondary passive safety, but they to be discussed as they are lockbacks of the strongest order having 1/4 steel meeting 1/4 inch steel on lockup.

They do not need the crossbolt to be as or more solid relative strength than an axis lock.

Oh yes, never trust euipment that has springs to not fail at the worst possible time. Then again, if it won't be used for defense, it really doesn't amtter.

I mentioned the crossbolt earlier as another had stated he wasn't planning on needing it in a hurry defensively, and in that scenario of utilitarianess, the ER's would be the strongest lock out there with the use of the crossbolt feature.

My ER MPC is as fast to depoly as any knife I've owned so that should not be an issue on deployment speed.


Stay sharp

Brownie
 
BTW this is a fun thread. :) I like the debate and seeing all the different views.

On my BM710HS there are two steel liners, each 1/8" thick. So there's a total of 1/4" of steel against the lock bar. In addition there's another 1/4" total of G-10, so that's a total of 1/2" of material to hold the lock bar! :)

I'd like to know how functional the Axis locks are with 1 spring broken and two. I have heard they are still fucntional with 1 spring out. The chances of two springs breaking at the worst time sounds pretty unlikely. One maybe. I wonder with both springs out if the lock bar can still be moved and securly hold the blade.

Let's remember lock backs can get dirt in them, like anything else, and when you go to open it the dirt could prevent lock up. I would think a lock back would be more vunerable to this than an Axis lock as the Axis lock would tend to push dirt out of the way. In a lock back the dirty would just get wedged there. Someone stated earlier their lock back failed from pocket lint. I don't see lint being a problem with an Axis lock. :)

Let the debate continue! :)
 
Originally posted by brownie0486

Oh yes, never trust euipment that has springs to not fail at the worst possible time. Then again, if it won't be used for defense, it really doesn't amtter.

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What do you think holds the lock bar into the notch?

A spring.

I have yet to see a lockback without a spring, or some sort of torsion bar.

I'll stick to the AXIS lock over a lockback any day. It won't release like a lock back could if you squeeze hard on the handle.
 
For most lockbacks that would be true,
They are now making them [ certain makers and models ] that will not release until fully depressed with a finger.

Lets revise the springs issue to coil springs.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by anonymous
lol @ "christmastree knife"

i did both a username and keyword search on SC_Rebel1857
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Sorry about messing up the guy's name. Easyrider, a guy who posts here and at the Benchmade forums, came up with that term. He's a very original thinker and very funny.
 
hi all, its my first post.when we talk about lock strength im confused . for example lets say a particular knife lock tests at 150 lbs.per inch.i would think that the longer the blade the more mechanical leverage would be available to break the lock . but i read threads were its stated that a knife that has a lock rating of 150 lbs per inch and is 4 inches long would be considered having 600 lbs of strength.i would have thought the knife tested would be on that particular knife with whatever length blade it comes with as a whole and not per inch.i hope im making myself understood.thanks.
 
Wow, I can't believe that the springs can break in those axis locks. How did you manage to break them ? I think they are pretty strong.
 
My personal opinion

Linerlock- Least reliable locking system. I have experienced failures

Framelock- My personal favorite. Although its been pointed out its possible to experience similar failure to linerlocks, I have never experienced it and am confident using this lock type for any purposes.

Lockback- Very reliable locking system, but unless you want to use your leg to assist, its not efficient one hand closing lock.

Slipjoint- Only type of knife that I had close and actually cut my pretty good

Axis Lock- Awesome locking system. The only Major downfall has yet to be mentioned and thats, your limited to very few knives mainly from one company when seeking this locking mech. Now I would love to see this lock design farmed out and used by other knife companies and custom knife makers in particular. Although I know people have mentioned all that would have to occur for an axis lock to fail, to me it seems like the more parts involved, the greater chance of failure. Does anyone have a diagram showing exactly how an axis lock works??
 
Originally posted by beluga
Wow, I can't believe that the springs can break in those axis locks. How did you manage to break them ? I think they are pretty strong.
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We occasionally hear reports of the springs breaking. I don't think it's so much a matter of what someone did to "manage to break them". Rather, I think the purity of the metal used and the heat treat really strongly determine how well the springs stand up to stress and corrosion. Sometimes, one goes. Not a problem with the axis lock though -- we've never heard of two springs going at the same time, and even with one spring broken, the knife will function fine for weeks on the other.

Joe
 
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