Bad AND Ugly. Joe Jurianto, aka "J. Jurianto" CAN NOT be trusted. ...this one's long

I am totally with Penguin on this.

I've probably done 60 or more buy/sell/trade deals on BF and the only problem I ever had was getting ripped of by Victor Huang/Vampor in China, and that was pretty much a straight rip-off.

Common sense would say that until the Forumite you've made a deal with has the knife or the money, you do not have a completed deal!

Until someone emails me that they have received the knife I sent (does not matter if it was a sale or a trade), and that they are happy. I would never imagine doing anything with the knife they traded or even spending the money, never. I can't imagine anybody would think otherwise:eek:

A good rule to follow on BF is, "a deal is not complete until both parties are happy" .

Just my .02:)
 
Originally posted by Cougar Allen
If it arrives intact and you're satisfied with its condition, then you can send the Monarch to Joe and everything will be fine, won't it?
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Sending the package back unopened will free Andrew from any suspicion in his handling of his side of the trade.

The problem is that Joe has had the Monarch for several days in his possession before he resent the package a second time due to the package being returned because of an invalid address (with Joe being the one that addressed the package).

While Andrew was waiting for his knife, he called the trade off, before the knife arrived. In the interim, BEFORE the deal was fully consumated, Joe A) devalued the Monarch by removing the First Production imprint on the blade; B) did not respond to Andrew's emails in a timely fashion; C) Flipped the bali and even cut himself with it; and D) offered to trade it to me for a BM 47.

Even after all that, with everything in writing, Joe A) Still chose to ignore Andrew's request to cancel the trade; B) Sent me the Monarch anyway (I have the Fedex scan and email from Joe); C) Forgot to tell me the First Production logo was atripped while still calling the knife "mint"; D) Did not make amends to Andrew; and E) is more worried about repairing his reputation, while it seems that the worse Andrew is guilty of is over-reacting.

And once this thread was posted, several other members of the forum came forward with their negative experiences with Joe. Not saying anyone is perfect, but in an environment where trust is heavily counted on to maintain a peaceful sense of community, it doesn't take much for someone to make a mistake and cause harm. Joe's behavior, and his sense of right and wrong, for this trade runs contrary to common practise. And all misunderstanding from both sides can be attributed to Joe's actions.
 
Well,I have been monitoring this thread unfold.Here are some of my thoughts on the situation.Joe,While you may have a good past record,it is important to maintain that record.I think you realize this fact.I'm not going too crucify you,bacause no one is perfect and I think you stepped on your peter and your willing to accept that responsibility.Some things that could have been better in this deal.

1)Better communication
2)Not flipping bali/or otherwise altering knife till deal is complete
3)trading knife off,before other party had their knife and was satisfied.
4)Misrepresenting Monarch's condition to Tony
5)Traded Monarch away,even though the a request was made to cancel the trade deal that was not completed yet.

Perhaps there may be more,but as you can see you made several mistakes.What to do about the problem.Well,hopefully you three could work something out.The best solution in my opinion is reverse the whole deal,send respective knives back to each other.I beleive then Joe should refund shipping costs the other formites have incurred,and give restituation to Penguin for damage to value of Monarch.Last problem,how much for damage to knife?Good question!I really don't know,a part of me wants to say pay the $65.00,after all this was all your fault.In my opinion and this is only my opinion,you should at least offer $40.00 plus his shipping expenses from the deal.I believe the production mark is important enough to significantly alter value.However;this is not my knife and so my price number is meaningless.If it were me and I wanted to make a full amends and have a better reputation from this mess.I would probably give him the $65.00 and make everyone happy and chock the loss up to experience.I think that would be the right thing to do Joe.Just my two cents.
 
By the way,a friendly piece of advice.I know you took a little ribbing on this thread,but under the circumstances you deserve some flak.My advice is,don't go running tail tucked under and dissappear from the forum or this thread.Changing user names and coming back disguised is never a good idea either,we usually find them out sooner or later.Particularly when names and shipping addresses start to look familiar.So here is my final words of wisdom.Take the bull by the horns and fulfill your obligations with restituation too the two other parties.Let it be known your intentions and post it here with a final apology.I believe then,and only then, this problem will be a faded memory.I hope you do the right thing.Take care,Raph
 
I'd completed a few smooth, honest and fair trade deals with J. a coupla months ago. As we swap our blades; he did it in a timely manner and he always used FedEx.

I also sold him few knives, and in one occasion he FedEx the MO to me (pls. note that I'm in Thailand) right away--even before we discussed the payment method, which caused me problem since my bank will have to charge me 32US$ for service fee. I told him about that, and though he didn't seem to understand my bank policy, he FedEx me another 32US$ right away, even though he was out of USA but in Indonesia taking care of his business.

On those deals, we had a great knife talk; and he's also very co-operative and friendly.

On those deals, sometimes, things weren't go so perfect. But he showed willingness to talk about it striaght-forward and tried to work things out. Sometimes it took awhile as he seems to be busy running his business; and it's also true that sometimes our Emails lost.

I'm sorry to hear about all this.
I've made quite a number of deals recently, and think that good communication and patience is a must-have ingredient.

Hope this help. ;)
 
None of you probably does not want to hear about my b.s. , but I'll write it down anyway.

Just to clear some confusion :


Sat. 10 through Tues. 13, - Send multiple e-mails to J. asking if he's shipped the knife yet. No responses, although I did notice him perusing the balisong forums.
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--- I just do not check email during weekend, and for your information, last monday was Veteran day (long weekend). So, I went to out of town for couple of days. Perusing forum ---> my roomate. I don't mind her doing so, as long as she does not post anything in the forum. So far, it has been going on fine.


Wed. 14 - Get response from J. telling me that he got my package, but there was a problem with his shipping and that he had to resend it. Ok, I have my suspicions here, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He also tells me that he's cut himself with it (I don't think too much of this, but he will try to use this against me later).{2}
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--- This happened before Andrew told me about cancelling the deal. I told him about my being cut merely because he was kind enough to send the one band aid and I wanted to tell him that his band aid was very useful. I appreciated what he did. Not other intention. Remember, this happened before the email about backing out of the deal. How could I have known that he was going to cancel the deal ?


Wed. 14, night time - I decide I don't like the smell of things and send an e-mail to J. stating that I am backing out of the trade all-together.
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--- My package finally arrived last Friday/Saturday, seems I did not lie about sending the package after all. He was happy with the original deal (Monarch with BM), then got suspicious b/c my knife was late, then my package finnaly arrived. I agree with Cougar Allen about "If it arrives intact and you're satisfied with its condition, then you can send the Monarch to Joe and everything will be fine, won't it?". Don't you think ?? Andrew got what he wanted (originally), I get to keep the Monarch and do whatever to it (since it's mine now) and I don't have to spend any more money.
His email did not arrive <-- believe it or no, Internet can get messed up. :)


That folks, is his irrefutable proof that he did not foul this deal up. The flaw in your argument, J., is that past performance does not always predict future behavior, especially not in this case. He again claims that he's offended by my words because "It seems to ME that you set me up. You might have waited until I sent you email about my having played with the knives and then decided to cancel the trade."
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--- Not trying to offend him, just explaining that there are many possibilities concerning this matter. He could suspect me of being not honest in his way. I could also suspect him of being dishonest in another way. So, instead of accusing me of anything, just wait and see if what I said was true.


I grudgingly accept the BM47 that he has pseudo-offered in a subsequent e-mail and await his reply (he's not usually speedy on e-mail replys unless it is to his advantage to do so, so I'm not holding my breath here)
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--- Well, it was weekend, and I have another life beside collecting knives. Don't you guys have something you want to do on weekend instead of flipping bali ?? I'm sorry, but I did. I want to go to a mall for window shopping (more fun than actual shopping). I want to meet with my friends who study at different college. I want to have meal at 'fancy' restaurant with my girlfriend. I want to go to a movie. I have to clean my apartment (this is a MUST, definitely not a WANT). Don't you guys want or do any of those on weekend ? One more thing, it was MID TERM WEEK. I had to study and do papers. Just to write this email, it took me almost 2 hours - not to mention my change of mood here. If those things count for my 'advantages', then pardon me for those. I could not reply his email immediately because I had to go visit some friends (my girlfriend kept rushing me). I arrived at home late night, I was too tired and could not reply any emails either (I did not check any emails either). The next morning, VOILA, I found this whole thing on the forum.


Here we go... like the subject says, Joe Jurianto (lets call him J. from now on) CAN NOT be trusted.
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--- I don't understand which part of my doing CAN NOT BE TRUSTED. This is what I've been doing :

Well, I admitted that I had damaged the knife at some degree.

I did send my knife to him, it was late though.

When Andrew asked me to give him some reimbursement, I did not agree about the amount only. The negotiation about how much the appropriate reimbursement was not finished yet. I said : $65 compensation is just absurd. <-- don't you think that I wanted to give him the compensation, but not agree to the amount ?

He did not get my replies for one day, and he put his whole thing at the forum. I'm not trying to blame him, but I'm just worried about my reputation.

I did not offer him to try to resolve this matter because I did not feel that I was in right position for bargaining.

So, what part is "CAN NOT BE TRUSTED" ? The only thing I did wrong was playing with the knife before he got mine. And I believe it is not just me that has been doing this practice.
"DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS FORUM ETTIQUETE", I could accept, but "CAN NOT BE TRUSTED" ?? You guys be the judge of me.

Since you guys are very interested in this matter (look at the 'view', almost 1,000 persons have viewed this post in a weekend :D), I'll let you know about how this thing ends.
I agreed to pay the $65 today, and will do so after class. I'll let him know about the tracking number, I'll post it on the forum too.

Hopefully my explanation can restore my reputation a bit.

Joe
 
When you make a trade with someone,have the common sense to make sure the other party is satisified before you screw with the knife."Common sense shall prevail" IMHO
 
Just a suggestion....take it or leave it.

When I trade or sell or whatever, I have tried to make one requirement for the deal to go. That is a promise that both sides will make an extra effort to email each other. You know as well as I do that trading with folks you have never met before can make you a bit nervous. I know when emails are going good before a trade, and then stop completely after the knife is mailed and getting no response either makes me start to wonder. While knives are in transit, make sure to let the other guy know you are still around and keeping an eye on things.

When im trading, I probably drive the other party nuts as I email all the time. I will send emails such as, "going to the post office"..."back from the post office, knife sent" and asking for them to email the second the knife arrives. When I get the knife they sent, even if im running late I will fire up the computer long enough to send a short email to let them know its here.

I feel when you are doing a deal, then both parties have an obligation to send update emails, even if its a little inconvenient for you, do it anyways.
 
Joe,

I'm not sure why you posted that. Hope it made you feel better or something. I thought we took care of this problem... My last e-mail from you said you will pay me $135 for the knife and it will be returned to you for keeps as well as the knife you send as your part of the trade. If you changed your mind, I think <b><i>I</i></b> should have been the first one to find out.

About Cougar's suggestions that I keep the knife... well, I thought about that, but when it arrived in an envelope with $1.26 worth of postage (not exactly the priority mail you stated), I decided it wasn't even worth it. :eek: If you don't know what I mean, read this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124614
If it was mint before, it probably isn't any longer.

Well, I hope you stick to our original deal... because I've already told Tony to hold onto your Monarch until your check arrives and clears.

Regards,
andrew
 
Please no need to post the tracking number here... I don't want anybody with "sticky" hands dropping by my house. ;) :rolleyes: :D
 
I am glad to see the transaction with Andrew has reached a satisfactory resolution. The circumstances of that transaction are perhaps excusable, and it didn't end badly; that's the main thing.

However, the transaction with Tonyccw is not easy to understand. He's only out some time and the cost of shipping twice, but it's not so easy to excuse trading a knife you knew you didn't own yet -- if you hadn't read your mail and found Andrew had cancelled the deal when you sent the Monarch to Tony, you certainly knew he hadn't received, inspected, and accepted your knife in trade for the Monarch. It's even more difficult to understand how you could describe the Monarch as "mint" after it had been used and the logo polished off, either. That is not what the word "mint" means by any stretch of the imagination.
 
I wrote my last post before seeing Andrew's last two which appear before it.

Now I don't know what to think. I certainly hope the transaction with Andrew reaches a satisfactory conclusion....

I have to wonder why you suggested the moderators post rules for transactions (in another thread). Why, if you won't read what we've already glued to the top of the forum with "IMPORTANT" in front of it?
 
I just posted it because what I did was unintentional, and every one might think that I'm just a cheater.

I don't want every body thinks that I am being dishonest. C'mon guys, it's not even a grand. The risk is greater than the gain here.

If I wanted to be dishonest, then I could not reply Andrew's emails, cancel my email address or something like that. But instead I tried to resolve the problem asap. As a matter of fact, the money order is on its way.

My harsh reaction was caused by the title 'CAN NOT BE TRUSTED', it's an insult for me.

Joe
 
Originally posted by Cougar Allen
Now I don't know what to think. I certainly hope the transaction with Andrew reaches a satisfactory conclusion....
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Me too. My orginal proposoal was to limit any more transaction between the 2 of them, and if it meant that I pay for the postage twice, I don't mind.

For the record: I received the Monarch via Fedex today. It was definitely sent out AFTER Joe read Andrew's request to cancel the deal.

And I have to agree with the aforementioned portion: Joe, you may have all the justifiable excuses for your trade with Andrew, but you do not have any that could justify our trade. Even the package being returned to you the first time, the one that probably planted the seed of doubt about the trade, is your reponsibility as you were the one that addressed the shipping label. I do have one question: why was it so important for you to trade with me that you would send it via Fedex, and yet only send your package to Andrew using regular parcel post? I would think that since this was a re-ship, you would spend the extra bucks to make sure Andrew gets it in a timely manner.

In either case, I have the Monarch in my possession. Andrew should have sent you back your BM450 (unopened I hope). And until resolution is completed, whether that be funds in the amount of $135 (properly cleared), or another in the amount of $65 and the third sending of the BM450 (not a viabale option as Andrew has cancelled the trade), I'm not shipping anything until I know you two have resolved the matter.

Please, now that you've posted your side of the story, and agree to make amends, live up to your words. Please, just do it expediously. For everyone's sake.

Thanks.
 
Whatever,

I'm getting tired of this matter. It's so hard to explain things to a lot of people. The problem has been resolved. I sent Andrew $65 (not $135 like I promised him be/c I completely forgot about the amount - it's been a long weekend for me).

I also offered him to send the other $65 tomorrow using Fedex, but he told me that it was not necessary.


Hey man, sorry about your weekend, being midterms and all. Look, I'll Cut you a break. Forget the other $65. Tony has my Monarch, he'll send it tome. I have your 450, I'm sending it to you. Your other check is in the mail. So we'll each post one (1) closing remark on bladeforums and call it even, OK?
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This is what I'm gonna say one last time "What I did was unintentional".

Tony : I think you still remember asking me for a tracking number. This is why I used Fedex on you. USPS does not offer a tracking number at Mailbox etc., only UPS and Fedex have tracking number.

Not that I don't trust you or anything, but can we do this? I'll put The BM47 in the mail once I get confirmation that you've sent the Monarch. A UPS tracking numbr will do. I hate to do this, but I've been burned a few times before.
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Joe
 
Ok, we've finalized it. (feel like a friggin' lawyer) Here it is.
I get the used Monarch and $65.
Joe gets his BM450 back, package unopened (assuming the PO lets me reject it, we'll know in the morning).
This is satisfactory to both of us. <b>CASE CLOSED.</b>

Jerry Springer's final.... I mean MY final thoughts (Joe and I each get one more post to this thread as per my suggestion, so I have to make it count...):

I hope we can all learn from this. Good communication is key. I backed out of this because of bad communication and that pretty much started the whole thing. I do not think Joe is the bad guy that I thought he was last week. Clearly, he was ignorant on many things-- shipping in boxes, not envelopes, proper etiquette of trades, open communications, etc. Now, mind you, I don't think ignorance is an excuse, but I think it, and NOT malicious intent, is the reason. For that I do not blame him.

This is a small community, there is no hiding. I'm glad that Joe has "seen the light" and made good on this deal. Sh!t happens sometimes, remember the Underdogizhere saga?? After that happened, he got a positive response here in GBU two weeks later. Joe came through with his honor intact, though shakey. I hope people do not hold this against him... give him a chance to prove himself.

I myself will probably take a little time off from internet trading, but I'll be back. I need to concentrate on other things anyway, like research, my thesis, and finding a summer job...

Thats all for me, and good night.
 
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