Bad information sometimes given on forums

Richard

Richard

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Oct 3, 1998
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Just want to make a few observations on some things I see on the forums as misleading or wrong. What are some of your thoughts on the following?, and other similar things I may not have mentioned.

Blade play. I know that some knives will develop large amounts of blade play and should be considered defective. However, some folders have small amounts and that will always be the case. I know some old men types that have used one knife (like Stockmen or Trapper patterns) for 20 years. A blade may have a small amount of play and according to them they were always like that. However they continue to use them hard and the knife has never failed them. I think blade play (in small amounts) has become a problem only in peoples minds. Somebody will post that they got a new Spyderco, Benchmade or whatever and that if you wiggle the blade enough you can feel a tiny amount of play...the responses they get are "wow, send it back" or "yeah, I had one of those, and I will never buy another".

Steel types. A newbie will ask about a certain knife, say a CRKT. Then several people will jump in telling them to not even consider that knife as it uses "aus6". They insist that the guy should spend more and get ats34 or 440v or something, otherwise there aus6 choice wont last them and they will hate it. I have had plenty of knives with anything from aus6 to 440v. I have never found aus6 to be "terrible". Granted it wont hold its edge like some of the expensive steels, but to discount it because its not the steel of the month shows a lack of real use knowledge. I think alot of advice is given by people who dont really know, they are just repeating what a so-called expert said.

Lock types. A much debated topic. Some people use liner locks and never have a problem. Other say they have 50 liner locks and they are all bad. Some people thnk that locks of all types should be able to withstand severe impacts to the back of the blade. I saw one person post that the Axis lock was no good as it could "possibly" be released in a knife fight. As soon as he said that, lots of people posted that "yeah, I guess it could" and some seemed as though they would never trust the Axis based on that "theory" alone. It should be noted that expectations of lock strength are in many cases unreasonable. Locks maybe strong for there size, but keep in mind that they are small. You are talking about pieces of steel that in many cases are less that 1/8 inch thick. They can make good locks for folders when used for cutting, but imagine the force made my smacking the back of the blade. Im no physics expert, but perhaps somebody who is can try and explain how fast an arm can travel in a smacking motion, and how much force the impact on the lock is.

Stainless. I have seen posts where people are horrified that there stainless knife rusted. Some responses again say that the knife must be junk, or the heat treat is bad or any number of theories. It should be noted that stainless is "Stain-less". Stainless steel will rust, not as easy as carbon steel, but it will rust under certain conditions and should not be assumed to be junk.

What knife should I get. I always love to see that question. Its a good question looking for good answers. I get a kick out of seeing some who rush in to say that you simply must buy XXX knife. Many times the knife recommended is not even avaliable yet. Maybe a picture was put up as "coming soon", so some so-called expert starts making statements on how it performs and how its the best knife made...even though they have never seen anything but a picture. There are others who recommend knives they have, no matter what. If a newbie says, "I need a gents folder with a 2" blade", or "I need a Trapper style knife", or "I need the toughest folder ever made" you, without fail, have some of the same people give the exact same answer to all those questions. Some will not even read the question, they will just say "you need a sebenza" or "you gotta check out the SIFU". C'mon folks, people are looking for guidance about specific styles, they dont just wanna hear what happens to be your favorite knife.

There are any number of similar things that tend to take up space on the forums. What are some of your thoughts on the above? Im sure you have some of your own, what are they?
 
RIchard,

I agree with your assessment here. A lot of people do come here for socail and entertainment purposes, too -- kinda like hanging out with your buddies, so I forgive a lot of the slack that happens. I've been guilty, too, of posting crap many times. So, just like when you get to know any group of friends, you know who to listen to and who to take with that proverbial "grain." Some days, I'm in a light-hearted mood, other days more serious, but you'll always know from the tone or content of my posts (or lack thereof).

A big thing I see that happens is this: one person states that such and such type of blade is not efficient for cutting (the old "chisel grind doesn't cut straight" thing, or "tantos suck for utility"), and everyone else starts repeating things like parrots, without trying stuff out themselves and coming to their own conclusions. Repeat something enough like a mantra, and soon everyone believes it.

When I see someone post that "something can't be done" or "this knife doesn't cut straight," I always first assume that what they are REALLY saying is "I don't have the skill to do this," or "I don't know how to adjust my technique for this sort of knife." These assumptions aren't meant to insult the poster, just a way to keep me inquisitive, and keep me from putting my thinking into a tight box. If it interests me, then I'll try it on my own and compare conclusions. My conclusion is either "well -- I was able to do it fine" or "I can't do it either -- can anyone else?" I never assume that my conclusions are correct either. I just use the info to go with what works for me, and for my purposes. I feel that this approach always keep us pushing the paradigm -- whether in knives or any other field.

But again, keep in mind that we all come here because we enjoy the camraderie as much as the information, and so "casual conversational tone occurs."

Best,
Brian.
 
Richard,
You raise some interesting points.
Concerning blade play -- Sal Glesser says that all lockbacks have a little bit of play. Funny, I own 9 Spyderco lockbacks (blue Delica, Calypso Jr. lightweight, Rescue Jr., baby Horn, CF Dragonfly, G10 Navigator, old style Merlin, both Ladybug models) and I can't detect any blade play in any of them.

I have to admit, it cracks me up when certain folks give their stock answer to "knife choice" questions. No matter what kind of knife the threadstarter is looking for, there's someone who will pipe up with "Sebenza!".


Edited because I have trouble remembering what knives I own. :o
 
Yep, I've noticed it here and on the gun forums too.

It's a lot easier to sit at the computer and post about how good or bad a product is instead of getting out and testing it yourself.

I also hate getting attacked by some popular guy's forum groupies.
 
Richard, Pretty tough spin on a group of friends enjoying and SHARING
the hobby we all love so much. No one here has ever claimed to be an expert.
We here at the forums are no different that a bunch of guys ( or a gal or two)
swapping stories and sharing our point of view on the subject at hand.

If a person wants expert or professional teaching you'd better get ready
to pay for it. It's called going to school or being an apprentice. I've learned
an enormous amount about cutlery in general here on Bladeforums and on the
other fourms out there in E- land.

The diversity of this group always give me and others plenty of food for
thought so that we can make up our own mind on what's best for us to buy,
use or consider.

So enjoy your stay here with us and learn all you can. It's all here at the
cost of your time and nothing more. I'd say that's a bargain that's unbeatable.
 
The only kind of loose talk which disturbs me here are the opinions and misinformation sometimes bandied about concerning the legality of certain kinds of knives etc. Balisongs are an example. Giving misinformation or unfounded opinions in such cases can be very dangerous if relied upon. What the law SHOULD be, or what personal experiences have been are not only legitimate, they are often interesting and entertaining as well. But legal speculations framed as opinions and advice are inappropriate.
 
I agree with you Richard on many of your points. There are some members that spend a considerable amount of time on the forum and do seem to engage in the same hyperbole repeatedly.

Of the 7 or 8 billion people on the planet, only a tiny fraction will ever make it to this forum. Many (or most) of those people use some kind of knife regularly. Somehow, these 7 billion people manage to survive from day to day without having their slipjoint or kitchen knife made from "surgical stainless steel" cut their arms off.

Apparently, most earthlings manage to live without a Sebenza, an Axis AFCK, or the "Butt-Master made from genuine INFI steel". They live without thumbstuds, holes-in-the blade and without custom concealex cross-draw rigs. I can't imagine how they do this, but they do.

All that said, for that very miniscule fraction that make it here, I don't see anything wrong with various expressions of maniac devotion that seems to accompany this craze for knife accumulating. It is just sort of a cult thing. Anyone who makes it here and can figure out how to use the "search" function can learn a great deal without ever having to post the old "what knife to get" thread.

Maybe there should be a flash intro to the forum which says, "Use the search function, or be prepared to enter the breech."
 
Good post Rich. Most of what people are proclaiming as the best are merely their favorites, which is fine if they admit that. There are a few people on the forums who I consider experts(though they won't say that they are) and I put a little more stock in their opinions, but it all boils down to what you like.

As far as the people who think they are know-it-alls, The first step to enlightenment is to admit that you are an idiot. Works for me.
:)
 
Although I recognize the 'problem' you are talking about Richard, I am not sure there is anything to be done about it. There are idiots abounding around here. Fortunately, the forums are somewhat self-correcting and self-policing and the truly clueless have a hard time expressing themselves without rousing the ire of the great and powerful masters of Blade Knowledge. This esoteric cult of blade fanatatics runs around in the blazing stainless armour of Truth, battling ignorance with the Best Knife available, made of the Finest Steel, putting their blades into play on a moments notice without ever wobbeling or wavering, and lock-up the idiots very tightly indeed.

Paracelsus, just another idiot
 
We tend to get a span of personal choices. But, ultimately the exchange focuses a little, and some real constructive thoughts are exchanged. Unlike most magazine articles this environment does not allow posturing to stand for very long. Just look at the way some of the big favorites have been attacked when they stray in quality or customer service.

Information is worth what you pay for it. If you want to send me a check, I'll be happy to buy a few copies of whatever knife your interested in, conduct scientific testing, and report back on the data and conclusions. But, it is unrealistic to expect such a neat and tidy report for free.

There is an enormous amount of content on this site. Focus on the positive and enjoy it.

n2s
 
When receiving any information consider the source. Should you give the same weight to a comment made about forged fixed blades by Ed Fowler as you would to one made by an anonymous person going by “BigBadBladeBoy”?
 
I think I'd like to jump in and give a newbie view here (newbie to the forum, collecting all my life).

Here's why I first started coming here: information. If you do a search for my first post, you'll see I was interested if anyone knew how to take apart a Barry Wood folder. I got some good answers and was about ready to leave it at that when I started clicking on other posts. Suddenly it became fun again to be a knife freak. In my day-to-day life I really don't get to be around anyone who likes knives that much, and most people look at me like I'm knuts when they get a clue as to my obsession. When I'm here, it's like I'm a kid again with all my high-school buddies hanging around the mall and drooling over the new Pacific Cutlery or Benchmark offerings. We offered each other all sorts of advice, and we all knew who was speaking from experience and who was talking out of their a$$hole. The problem would arise when a newbie to our group would come in and ask a question not knowing who to trust and who was full of it. Invariably someone would take the guy aside and politely mention not to listen to so-and-so sh!t-for-brains.

That's how I see this forum. Now, I've never had anyone tell me specifically that someone here is full of it, but I think most of us are adults here, and I hope we can all usually figure out the who's who without any help. That said, I do feel like there have been a few times where a legitimate question has been asked, like "What folder under $150?" and the thread turns into a comparison between Sebenzas, Apogees, and a any number of other popular knives well outside of the original criteria of the thread. I suppose those of us who know a little about more than one knife should be piping up and giving an educated opinion instead of letting the fanatics at it.

I'll be the first to admit that I love the Sebenza, and have been bit by the Sebenza bug. However, when I recommend the knife I do my best to communicate the initial and lifetime cost; its pros and cons. I try not to be freakish about it, but I'm sure I've failed there occasionally as well.

I love it here, and I think as long as we all keep in mind that this place is a public, voluntary gathering of people with similar interests, look out for the new guys, and keep the insults to W&C, this forum will serve us well for years to come.

-Al-
 
The types of things you mention aren't a bladeforums thing -- they're an any-forums-on-the-web thing. Anywhere you go on the web, you'll see the same patterns repeated over and over, as if this is a basic feature of this particular type of communication. There are always some running dogmas. There are always some trends. There are always some mindless followers, but also some leaders who test out as many of hte dogmas as they can. There are the caustic, abrasive types, there are the dispassionate analyzers, there are the over-excited newbies, there's the energetic hobbyist, and on and on.

Another feature: all forums start out more "family-like" and friendly, but as they get bigger, their nature changes. It's as true of web forums as it was of internet groups 15 years ago.

I truly believe that this is a basic feature of human communication across this type of medium. It's always interesting to bring it to the forefront for discussion, but in the end it doesn't change anything. In my opinion, it's more effective to "think globally, act locally": that is, participate in the particular threads you care about, and balance things out in that particular thread by formulating your argument carefully.

I say all this realizing that I'm as guilty as anyone: I still sometimes catch myself repeating something that I've never tested. I still answer "pick which knife is best from the following list" queries with some other knife that isn't on the list. My posts have probably affected some people's thinking the way others' posts have affected mine, and sometimes opinion was probably too-strongly represented as fact in both directions. Its the fallible and free nature of this medium that adds to the fun.

Joe
 
....to step up and make a criticism of this nature. They're not absurd questions at all, and it has made many of us think. Bravo to Richard for stepping out on a limb--regardless of whether he's 100% or 0% correct.

Being the Devil's advocate is a tough job!!!;)

Coop

Q: What's the difference between the Antagonist and the Protagonist?
A: Their opinion of which THEY are!!!
 
Good responses and points made folks. Sometimes I suppose I fail to remember that alot of this is like talking among friends, only over the 'net.

I guess sometimes I think that newbies may not realize it, and possibly walk away with incomplete information.

I do realize that much of the info here is helpful (I have gotten much useful info myself). I have in the past been guilty of some of the very things I mentioned, I have tried to stop doing that and learn from those that I respect. All around I guess this is a pretty good place. I suppose like anything else, it has its faults, but most times the good points far outwiegh the faults.

Good point James about opinions of Ed Fowler vs. "BigBadBladeBoy" :D

Thanks for the insigt folks....sometimes I have to be reminded of the positive stuff around here.
 
Joe,

Great post on the subject. I think your analysis says it all, and very well, as usual.

If I may speak for Richard (tell me to shut up Rich if you want), I don't think he was being insulting, or meant to be. Of course, now, Rich, I'm gonna go hunt down your past posts for things like "THIS IS MY FAVORITE KNIFE -- NO AUS-6 BLADE PLAY AND LOCKS UP GREAT!!!!" <evil grin> Just kidding, BTW...

Seriously, I read Rich's tone as a reasoned analysis of some things that go on in forums. Sometimes it's good to bring these things up to remind us to think critically about everything we read. So, Rich, thank you for bringing up a great subject, and thank you for presenting it in a reasoned way. If everyone rereads his posts, he politely asked for thoughts from people on it. And some just flamed him -- LOL! Guess that illustrates his point... Remember, Rich did not single anybody out, so if you took offense, look inside yourself grasshoppa... <grinnin'> I saw myself in some of his critique, and I am coming clean. Guilty as charged. But hey, I forgive me. :) Why? Because I am having a lot of fun on these forums, and have met a lot of really cool people, and a lot of, er, interesting characters. I'm entertained either way.

Information is based on logic and scientific analysis, wouldn't you all agree? But mainly, in this hobby of knives, the only real information is our subjective preference anyway. Our own created reality. Some people hate a knife that doesn't cut, others like it because it is safer to butter their bread with ("It's a very expensive spatula with linen micarta handles and pearl inlays, dear! Aren't you glad I remortgaged the house to pay for it?!"). What one person hates, someone will always love. ("A knife only a mother could love?")

We'll never agree on everything, otherwise, every knife produced would be a Sebenza, I guess. ;) You know, now that I think of it, I've never held a Sebenza yet. Gotta do that at the SHOT show when I go. I've heard many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many,many great things here about it! Very many. ;) From many people. When that many people like a knife, well, that's a "shared, created reality." Must be a good one, though, so I'll check it out.

Damn, I think I just posted a lot of words about absolutely nothing of consequence. Too much coffee...that's the real culprit on these forums....

Best,

Brian.
 
(All quotes are from Richard's post, but not all responses are directed to him.)

<b>Blade play. I know that some knives will develop large amounts of blade play and should be considered defective. However, some folders have small amounts and that will always be the case. I know some old men types that have used one knife (like Stockmen or Trapper patterns) for 20 years. A blade may have a small amount of play and according to them they were always like that. However they continue to use them hard and the knife has never failed them. I think blade play (in small amounts) has become a problem only in peoples minds. Somebody will post that they got a new Spyderco, Benchmade or whatever and that if you wiggle the blade enough you can feel a tiny amount of play...the responses they get are "wow, send it back" or "yeah, I had one of those, and I will never buy another".</b>

I don’t think blade play is an imaginary concern. All folding knives suffer from one design defect. They fold in the middle. The tighter we can lock them up, the closer we come to eliminating this “defect.”

Many years ago, side-to-side blade play was a measure of how well the knife was fitted. It was a standard of overall quality. Now, blade play is dictated by not “fit” but spring tension. There’s a spring pushing the blade against the stop pin, and possibly another one (detent) pushing on the side of the blade, forcing it against the pivot washers or liner. While Zero Blade Play is still a desirable trait, it isn’t really an indicator as to the overall quality of the knife.

<b>Steel types. A newbie will ask about a certain knife, say a CRKT. Then several people will jump in telling them to not even consider that knife as it uses "aus6". They insist that the guy should spend more and get ats34 or 440v or something, otherwise there aus6 choice wont last them and they will hate it. I have had plenty of knives with anything from aus6 to 440v. I have never found aus6 to be "terrible". Granted it wont hold its edge like some of the expensive steels, but to discount it because its not the steel of the month shows a lack of real use knowledge. I think alot of advice is given by people who dont really know, they are just repeating what a so-called expert said.</b>

You can use the finest “Flavor-Of-The-Month” steel and still end up with a junk knife. The quality is in the heat treating. If it’s done well, then most run of the mill knife steels will do the job just fine. If it’s done poorly, it doesn’t matter how cool your steel is, the blade’s going to suck.

Having said that though, there are some steels that are much easier to work and heat treat than others. Give me a hack saw blade and a grinding wheel and I’ll give you a very sweet little kitchen paring knife that I heat treated on top of the stove.
I couldn’t do that with ATS-34.

<b>Lock types. A much debated topic. Some people use liner locks and never have a problem. Other say they have 50 liner locks and they are all bad. Some people thnk that locks of all types should be able to withstand severe impacts to the back of the blade. I saw one person post that the Axis lock was no good as it could "possibly" be released in a knife fight. As soon as he said that, lots of people posted that "yeah, I guess it could" and some seemed as though they would never trust the Axis based on that "theory" alone. It should be noted that expectations of lock strength are in many cases unreasonable. Locks maybe strong for there size, but keep in mind that they are small. You are talking about pieces of steel that in many cases are less that 1/8 inch thick. They can make good locks for folders when used for cutting, but imagine the force made my smacking the back of the blade. Im no physics expert, but perhaps somebody who is can try and explain how fast an arm can travel in a smacking motion, and how much force the impact on the lock is.</b>

I suspect the person you’re talking about in reference to the Axis Lock is CJ Carracci. He’s right. The hand could conceivably slide and accidentally dis-engage the lock. Does this mean it’s probable? I doubt it. However when choosing a defensive tool, we should always attempt to remove as many “maybes” from the equation as possible.

Removing the “maybes” is exactly why people “Spine Whack Test” their knives. I don’t agree with them, I think the Spine Whack Test provides a false sense of security and little else. It doesn’t prove what the knife will do next time, only what it did this time. My answer to this is simply to not trust any mechanical safety and try not to place any un-due stress on the back of the blade. When I get a new Liner-Lock, I hold it as if I were trying to close a non-locking knife and try to close it. If it moves, there’s a problem. If not, it’s fine. Much less stress than the “Spine Whack Test” and I know as much as I’m ever likely to know.

<b>Stainless. I have seen posts where people are horrified that there stainless knife rusted. Some responses again say that the knife must be junk, or the heat treat is bad or any number of theories. It should be noted that stainless is "Stain-less". Stainless steel will rust, not as easy as carbon steel, but it will rust under certain conditions and should not be assumed to be junk.</b>

Water is one of the most corrosive substance on Earth. It will eat through anything given enough time. Including “Stainless Steel.”

<b>What knife should I get. I always love to see that question. Its a good question looking for good answers. I get a kick out of seeing some who rush in to say that you simply must buy XXX knife. Many times the knife recommended is not even avaliable yet. Maybe a picture was put up as "coming soon", so some so-called expert starts making statements on how it performs and how its the best knife made...even though they have never seen anything but a picture. There are others who recommend knives they have, no matter what. If a newbie says, "I need a gents folder with a 2" blade", or "I need a Trapper style knife", or "I need the toughest folder ever made" you, without fail, have some of the same people give the exact same answer to all those questions. Some will not even read the question, they will just say "you need a sebenza" or "you gotta check out the SIFU". C'mon folks, people are looking for guidance about specific styles, they dont just wanna hear what happens to be your favorite knife.</b>

When you ask for opinions, you’re going to get them. Some will be good, some will be bad, some will have nothing to do with the question you asked. That’s Humans for you. :)

<b>There are any number of similar things that tend to take up space on the forums. What are some of your thoughts on the above? Im sure you have some of your own, what are they?</b>

BFC is a place to talk about knives and all things knife related. It’s a community of over 13,000 members with 13,000 different ways of looking at the world around them. Many “knewbie knife knuts” will ask a question just to “break the ice.”

Maybe that question has been asked a thousand times before, but it’s not really about the question sometimes. Sometimes it’s just a person out there saying “Hello! I’m here, I’m interested, and I want to join in, can I?”

The answer should always be a resounding “YES! C’mon in and join the party!” The best way to do that is to answer their question in a friendly and informative way (even if it has been asked a million times) and make the new guy feel welcome.

If you don’t have the energy to do that, just pass it by. It costs you nothing. I’m always bothered by the people who go out of their way to slap down a new guy for asking a “dumb question” in his first few posts. Give’em a break guys, we were all “knewbies” once.

“To Whack Or Not To Whack”
“Folder versus Fixed”
“Stainless versus Carbon”
“V-grind versus chisel grind”
There are always going to be issues where some people see things one way, some see things the other, and never the twain shall meet. Okay, fair enough. Let’s all state our opinions on the matter when asked and then realize that people are going to make their own decisions and let it go at that.
 
Opinions, everybody's got one- and oh yeah, one of those other things too...
Read what's here, seperate the wheat from the chaff & make up your own mind.
Ain't it great?
;)
 
You'll find bad info everywhere on the web; it's not something that's exclusive to BFC or to one group of people in any way. I remember when I first started college in the early '90s, everyone thought that the burgeoning internet was a godsend for writing papers. You could do half of your research in just a couple of hours! Unfortunately, we quickly learned that any internet source has to be double-checked with a real source if you want accurate info.

Most of the communication that goes on here has a conversational tone. You rarely see any kind of scholarly research type stuff here and I personally wouldn't want much of that. If someone's talking about a legal matter or something, I might want to see some sources cited: not because it's especially serious, but just because it's easy to do so. Extremely serious matters of life and death are discussed in martial forums around the net, yet people still provide bad information even in those places. Forums are a lot of fun, but maybe we should just take everything we read on the internet with a grain of salt no matter what the circumstances are.
 
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