Bad reputation

DMG said:
I think they deliberately run steel soft to make it more durable. Same steel, my ZTs didn’t hold an edge as well as a Benchmade or Spyderco.
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I agreed with this, i stonewashed my ZT 393 20cv blade and the edge was all dinged up, sharpened it up afterwards like it was nothing compared to RHK or Medford s35vn which feels way much more harder to sharpen.
 
DMG said:
I think they deliberately run steel soft to make it more durable. Same steel, my ZTs didn’t hold an edge as well as a Benchmade or Spyderco.
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I disagree. I've heard other people say the same thing but without a Rockwell test (which I have never been able to find) we just don't know. All I do know is, my ZTs perform great. Sharpening feels like sharpening any other 20cv or s35vn knife, which is pretty easy. Then again, after working on my 940-1, almost any steel I own is easy...
 
Yo Mama said:
As I went to get another microtech I asked the dealer to check what steel it was, I'm fine with either m390 or 204p, but not Elmax.

Dealer asked why, knowing what I was already going to say, I have no experience with it, but imo ZT ruined the name of the steel so bad I'd just rather anything else. He said he hears this constantly.

A reputation matters, once tarnished it's very hard to correct. Should elmax rename the steel in an attempt to rebranding? Besides elmax, are there other bad reputations you stay away from even though they may be perfectly fine now (not knife manufacturers but I mean direct materials)?
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Elmax is a difficult steel to heat treat, ZT / Kai just didn't know what they were doing with the stuff, or they were too stubborn to get an in house expert on the scene to deal with it, or send it out for professional heat treatment.
That's ZT's reputation in my book not the Elmax steel, but I do see what you mean, sometimes things can stick with you based on past experiences and that's human nature, I just want to assure you Elmax is a good steel as long as you heat treat it as Elmax, because it isn't 20CV, and it isn't D2, it's Elmax and needs to be treated as Elmax.
The same goes for M2 I personally love M2 but I understand knife makers don't want to deal with the M2 heat treating mess, because it requires its own specific heat treatment method, if you heat treat M2 like it's 1095 you won't end up with M2 at it's full potential. I have some M2 professionally heat treated by Eclipse tool company to 65 HRC, and this stuff out performs Spydercos K390 by 50% in all my edge stability and retention testing. It is beastly stuff and not to be triffled with.
I got some good Elmax from Fox knives in Maniago Italy, and the reason why it is so good is because Fox send their Elmax out for professional heat treatment with a steel factory in Italy, a factory that specialize in heat treating difficult steels, they don't do it in house.
Trust me Elmax is perfectly good when done right, just as good as M390, bad Elmax is just that bad Elmax, good Elmax is great.
 
soc_monki said:
I disagree. I've heard other people say the same thing but without a Rockwell test (which I have never been able to find) we just don't know. All I do know is, my ZTs perform great. Sharpening feels like sharpening any other 20cv or s35vn knife, which is pretty easy. Then again, after working on my 940-1, almost any steel I own is easy...
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Without a Rockwell test your experience is no more meaningful than mine. Has anyone independently tested them?
 
I prefer Elmax to M390. It’s not super tough or anything, but it does seem tougher than M390 with less chippiness. It’s edge holding is good too.
 
So wait. You guys are telling me heat treatment with regard to blade steel performamce is important? Wow, news to me.
 
DMG said:
Without a Rockwell test your experience is no more meaningful than mine. Has anyone independently tested them?
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Exactly. And I haven't found any tests at all. If anyone knows of someone willing to test some knives I'd send a few off.
 
I once had a ZT 0770 in Elmax. Very good steel. Held an edge a very long time. I didn’t have any issues with chipping either.
 
DMG said:
Without a Rockwell test your experience is no more meaningful than mine. Has anyone independently tested them?
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A simple set of hardness test files is all that is needed. But, is any of this relevant in real life? The performance difference would be a matter of degrees and unless you work on the line everyday at a meat processing plant, what difference does it make? I enjoy my knives and I am happy to see that the technology is advancing; but, I am just as satisfied using a hundred year old knife as I am using the latest.

Quality of design and quality of production count; as for steel, I am happy to lump the them into good, fair and junk. I need my knives to slice and butter bread, not to run in an all out technological competition. The hype over knife steels far exceeds the merit. I doubt most of our “steel snobs” could sort them out in a double blind test.:confused:

n2s
 
The Aflac Duck said:
This is the most asinine thread I’ve read and will read this year.
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Then get lost. This is a legit question, sorry was to hard for both yo brain cells.

We all know you love w&c, its where most of what you post goes, keep your garbage there.
 
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josiahg52 said:
So wait. You guys are telling me heat treatment with regard to blade steel performamce is important? Wow, news to me.
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Or you can read. My op was pretty clear, I'm not talking about the validity of elmax. I'm talking.....about.....it's.....reputaion.....affecting........purchasing.
 
Yo Mama said:
I have no experience with it, but imo ZT ruined the name of the steel so bad I'd just rather anything else.
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The bold explains some of the replies you're receiving.
The Aflac Duck said:
This is the most asinine thread I’ve read and will read this year.
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And yet you still posted, if the thread's not up to your standards stay out of it.
 
Londinium Armoury said:
Elmax is a difficult steel to heat treat, ZT / Kai just didn't know what they were doing with the stuff, or they were too stubborn to get an in house expert on the scene to deal with it, or send it out for professional heat treatment.
That's ZT's reputation in my book not the Elmax steel, but I do see what you mean, sometimes things can stick with you based on past experiences and that's human nature, I just want to assure you Elmax is a good steel as long as you heat treat it as Elmax, because it isn't 20CV, and it isn't D2, it's Elmax and needs to be treated as Elmax.
The same goes for M2 I personally love M2 but I understand knife makers don't want to deal with the M2 heat treating mess, because it requires its own specific heat treatment method, if you heat treat M2 like it's 1095 you won't end up with M2 at it's full potential. I have some M2 professionally heat treated by Eclipse tool company to 65 HRC, and this stuff out performs Spydercos K390 by 50% in all my edge stability and retention testing. It is beastly stuff and not to be triffled with.
I got some good Elmax from Fox knives in Maniago Italy, and the reason why it is so good is because Fox send their Elmax out for professional heat treatment with a steel factory in Italy, a factory that specialize in heat treating difficult steels, they don't do it in house.
Trust me Elmax is perfectly good when done right, just as good as M390, bad Elmax is just that bad Elmax, good Elmax is great.
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Yeah that's what i meant. Did zt forever tarnish the name of elmax? I don't think it's fair, but my decision had everything to do with the reputation it unfairly got.
 
8cr13mov comes to mind. I used it a long time in a spyderco byrd crossbill before knowing it was "bad" steel. After trying it on a few less expensive knives though, it certainly can be done really poorly, like all steels.

440c and D2 are in there for me, depending on where it's coming from. I like the stuff on traditional knives or from benchmade but anything from most imported brands, I question if it's even the real steel or if the HT is worth a darn.

Shopping for kitchen knives recently reminded me that I have a strong aversion to "high carbon stainless steel" that even the big European brands push on their $100+ knives. What is it? Then, even worse, some run their hardness around mid-50's on standard chef's knives. No thank you, I'll talk to some of the knifemakers on BF and get something heat treated as a knife and not an axe or cleaver.

Damascus is another one. I find it beautiful if coordinated well with the rest of the knife but I've gotten "bored" (can't think of a better term currently) with it because of all of the garbage copies out there that's nearly a laser etch than real, layered damascus. So I just window shop and marvel at the cool stuff the BF makers are putting out but stick with single steel blades, maybe a simple sandwiched steel like Spyderco's Hap40 or Falkniven's layered VG10.
 
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